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114. Matt Miller | CrossFit and Mental Health

114. Matt Miller | CrossFit and Mental Health

In this episode Fern and Matt Miller discuss what the mental health field has to offer coaches and box owners.  As Affiliate begins to broaden our outreach to try to work with the “underserved” populations it is important for coaches to be able to meet those clients wherever they are in that journey.  How we speak to people and the questions we ask can have a massive effect on their outcomes. It’s a skill set that many coaches maybe under quipped for, we hope this episode helps you guys have those hard conversations and make them a little less awkward on both sides.  This is very informative episode and is full of information, we hope it is helpful and it helps you as coach and owner.

Timestamps:

(4:37) Why is it important?
(8:55) Translator Reticle Model of Change
(16:50) Open-ended Question with athletes
(25:59) Setting up wins
(30:04) Affiliate owners mental health – Compassion Fatigue
(33:00) Not taking the box home
(36:01) The importance of planning
(42:37) When being direct is necessary
 
 

O.A.R.S: 

O – Open-Ended Questions
A – Affirmation
R- Reflective Listening
S – Summarize 

Recommend Book: 

Motivational Interviewing: Helping People Change, 3rd Edition (Applications of Motivational Interviewing) – by William R. Miller & Stephen Rollnick

Co-Active Coaching, Fourth Edition: The proven framework for transformative conversations at work and in life -Karen Kimsey-House, Henry Kimsey-House, 

Man’s Search For Meaning: The classic tribute to hope from the Holocaust – Viktor E Frankl

Contact Email:

Matt@millerprofessionalcounseling.com

Matt Miller Website

Here is a link to information on the Transtheoretical Model of Change:

Information on Motivational Interviewing:

https://motivationalinterviewing.org/sites/default/files/understanding_mi_aug_2019.pdf

A link to the CFCEU event on the CrossFit Main site: (It’s at the bottom of the screen) 

https://certifications.crossfit.com/ccft/continuing-education

We value your feedback. After listening, please hit me up with any questions, comments, or thoughts on how we can make this show even better, and if you enjoyed it, please share it!

Instagram; @besthouroftheirday

Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jason-ackerman

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Check out our website – besthouroftheirday.com – to learn more about our private coaches development group.

Matt Miller.mp4 transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

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Fern:
All right, everybody, welcome back to the best out of their day Fern here again. I'm here with my good friend, Mr. Matt Miller, and I'm kind of excited about this talk. This is something that's kind of near and dear to my heart just due to my family, quite frankly. But I do have a little beef with Matt. He is an Alabama fan. I'm an LSU fan. And next weekend it's on. So I'll be honest with you. I never like playing the tide at their home. But it is what it is now.

Matt Miller :
It is what it does is. Hoping to make a comeback.

Fern:
Yeah. He's not. He's not doing well. I mean, he's a great quarterback, but he's he's in the middle of a little bit of an injury. So I'm hoping that's gonna work out to our advantage and I'll take it. I don't care.

Matt Miller :
If you have a hot trophy front runner don't to you.

Fern:
If he's not the Heisman Trophy front or I don't know who is, to be frank with you, because he's been crushing it. I mean, Auburn was his worst game. And it wasn't a bad game. It just wasn't a ridiculous game like he's been having every weekend. So, yeah, I'm a Joe Baro fan.

Matt Miller :
When Joe Baro can run for touchdowns against that defense. You guys have team.

Fern:
I mean, listen, we could go on and on about like the frustration I've had with a lack of good QB at LSU in the past two decades, but now we're faith that for another bad guest. But anyway, so in the spirit of trying to provide value to the community. Matt and I are going to talk about some topics that are probably not necessarily on the top of people's minds, but Matt's background is in the mental health field. And so we're going to talk a little bit about that. But that's got some other cool stuff going on here. And I've crossed paths at the Games and some other networks. And then somebody like hit me up again in a couple weeks ago and said, you should get Matt on the show. So we set it up. Here we are. He's working on. He's got some CCU it available that are available for you guys that are trying to keep your credentials good for Level 3. And and we're going to dive into the some stuff, but the the big topic that we're going to kind of dive into once we get there is, you know, with the shifts. To Crossfit Health. Right. You know, the idea here is that we're trying to we're trying to work with the underserved, which is essentially what Coach Glassman is defined as, the elderly and the obese.

Fern:
You know, there are some some pretty significant hurdles there with regard to the psychological space that a lot of people are in. You know, you have to learn really how to manage objections from a coaching standpoint. So I think the mental health space has a lot to offer here. And my mom has been, you know, clinical and in private practice, social worker for like almost 40 years, you know, dealing with a lot of scenarios. So I'm I'm pretty intimately familiar with with a lot of these things. It's a big deal. So, Matt, I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Thank you.

Matt Miller :
You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me on the show and giving me this access to this awesome community that's made the impact on me and my family. I didn't know this about your mom.

Fern:
Yeah, yeah, she is, my mom. She's been doing it. I mean, primarily she's been the bulk of her of her case. Work is probably a lot of marriage counseling. But over the years, that's kind of fluctuated. And she does she did a lot of post-traumatic stress counseling after Katrina because they're down there in Baton Rouge. And, you know, she saw tons and tons of people for years after that. So, yes, she's you know, she's been doing this for a long time. And I've picked up some things from her over the years, obviously, because she's really good at it. But this is this is a skill set that probably most coaches are not what I would say like well equipped for. Right. Or with, if you will, is to have some of those hard conversations. And because they can be a little awkward. Like, I don't really know how to say that. And they can be a lot like super stressful for both parties if you don't know how to navigate those waters.

Matt Miller :
Absolutely. You know, the fact that we knew of that for Crossfit, coaches, thank goodness, you know, headquarters approved it is called the art and science of uncomfortable conversations. Definitely awkward, uncomfortable, necessary.

Fern:
So let's talk about CEUs their real quick, so the title. So if anybody is trying to get you used for their for their continued education, for their for their level 3, the title of the course is or is the art and science of uncomfortable conversation. So talk to me a little bit about the course first and then we're going to talk about some more practical things that life coaches can do. Like if you know what, my goal with you today is to like if somebody listens to this podcast and then somebody that falls into that demographic walks in the door immediately, is that they would be at least better equipped to have the conversation than before they was on the podcast.

Matt Miller :
Absolutely. Definitely. The purpose for me have them that see you event and stick my head out of what's really off professional swim lane, as you would say, is two to first and foremost a share. A strategy, a technique, a tactic. Call it what you will. A process. It's really, as Dr. William Miller would say, the guy that kind of created something we call motivational interviewing. It's really the way of being with how to just really exist in and time and place with someone. And Carl Rogers probably had the biggest influence. Dr. Carl Rogers, the great pun there, and counseling techniques. Would say that being able to exhibit accurate empathy with people usually has the biggest impact on outcomes of counseling sessions. Right. So if we take that skill set, let's say, knowing how to have an uncomfortable, awkward conversation with someone 30 minutes before you start briefing as a Crossfit, coach, let's say knowing how to appropriately and effectively be with that person. I think it's it's only going to enhance our ability as Crossfit, coaches on affiliate's and also participants, athletes, you know, clients, whatever we call ourselves, members of the community to be able to sit and be with folks. But definitely coaches. This acronym Owers is really the way that we stay on task with this particular strategy. To give it accurate empathy requires we know by studying counseling sessions, by literally videotaping and then critiquing the styles of counseling.

Matt Miller :
The people who exhibit accurate empathy by asking open ended questions.

Matt Miller :
So instead of being directive. It's really it comes across as non-directive. In essence, it's not my agenda. It's your agenda.

Fern:
Yeah.

Matt Miller :
Right. And so, you know, we've heard this for years. They were the client is right.

Matt Miller :
And if they're not ready to do a ring muscle, do you need to be training them on a ring muscle?

Fern:
Well, from a coaching standpoint, no. Probably start with a progression of some sort. And maybe in, again, meeting them where they're at. But. And so. So, Jay, I did in an episode on empathy a while back, and I actually got quite a bit of feedback on that. Like one of the probably one of the most listened to episodes that we've done. Have you ever listened to go back and listen to what everybody. But what we talked about a lot of different things. You know, we talked about tonality, body language, facial expressions. You know, like how you engage people. But what would you describe as accurate empathy? And I ask that because empathy can be this big, vague thing or like, hey, you have more empathy, which, you know, which we would describe as just care more. But that's I don't know that does it justice? Like, what does that look like in real time?

Matt Miller :
I'm going to be a little bit more nerdy here.

Fern:
Oh, that's great.

Matt Miller :
I think it's necessary. And this will be part of the class, too. And I can say that when we're really when we're talking about using flowers or something we call motivational interviewing, when we're being with someone so we can have accurate empathy. We're also juggling another kind of theory in the field of behavioral science, really change psychology, the psychology of change, and that is something we call the translator reticle model of change. Some people caught the stages of change. It made be called readiness to change. So are you familiar with the stages?

Fern:
I. If you told them to me, I could probably like if you started to write piecemealing together. But the short answer is no. I'm sure I've seen them at some point, but haven't. But the the the author, I have that book in here. But motivational interviewing. Who's the author for that again? For people who are understood. I forgot.

Matt Miller :
I'm almost positive that if it is really motivational interviewing, it's going to be Howard, not Howard. William M. or Howard Malleolo, is the owner of Crossfit,, my affiliate. Yeah. With Miller from the University of New Mexico.

Fern:
And there's another good one that's very similar to that book, which is called Co Active Coaching. So people can check it out, too. But I do have that book. I don't know if it's here or it might be at my house, but I do have a motivational interviewing in my possession.

Matt Miller :
And that stuff is so powerful and motivational interviewing really is just another way of using a Rod Jerian approach and counseling sessions. But we know that as a kind of studied and tested this approach on other populations, let's say, and not just like the original research that Dr Miller did for motivational interviewing was with problem drinkers. And so then they found that there was a useful in this in and smoke cessation or helping people quit smoking. This is where this other theory that we're also juggling while we're using owers, let's say, asking open ended questions, using affirmations, reflective listening and summarizing. We're also juggling and keeping really at the forefront of our mind that every person we meet is somewhere along the stage of change, A single one of us are somewhere on one of these stages. The first stage that we talk about is called pre contemplation. And so a person with a pre contemplated mindset. We say they're not ready. That's a good way to describe it. They literally don't think they have a problem.

Fern:
Mm hmm.

Matt Miller :
All right. So how you talk to someone, how you are able to be with someone, how you use it or with someone who's not ready? You know, this is really potent how you talk to someone who is ready. We would call that person either in preparation, the stage of preparation or the stage of action. You wouldn't talk to them the same way you tell to somebody who is in pre contemplation. But most service organizations, whether you're an alcohol and drug rehab center, whether you are a fitness center, a crossfit affiliate In my opinion, these organizations are what we would call action oriented top of facilities or organizations. We're already assuming that you're ready. When you walk through the door, we've got rates both dead in the concrete quarter, ready or not, and we're assuming if you come in here and you go through the 1 to 1 or the onboarding class, you're ready. So being able to understand those nuances, I think I think I mean, you did my L-1. You guys are in touch with scaling. Now we scale movement, we scale or understand these points of performance and learn at a scale scaling how you talk to someone is really what this is about for me.

Fern:
That is a skill that I I just, truth be told, have never practiced like I guess intentionally. But it is something that I'm. Particularly in the level one setting, because you meet, you interact with so many strangers, will call it throughout the year, that. You do pick it up over time. You do. You do suddenly understand the art of the tone of the way you say things or literally the order of words that you use and things like that can be the difference between this person. Acknowledging and accepting what you have to say or checking out for the rest of the weekend, right. And it's it's an I don't and I know nothing about it other than I've probably developed some sort of skill set with regards to that over the years, purely out of necessity, because I have to connect with people. And over the weekend and and I'm thinking about the affiliate setting. So I know like let's go to these people who are pre pre contemplations. So it's a. If you think about the number of people that come into the Crossfit, gym, most of them are. It's a done deal like that sale is done before they actually show up. Those are not the hard ones. The the ones that are far more difficult are like if you're running six week challenges at your gym or you're doing some sort of special where you're bringing in people who are kind of on the fence. They come in and like I'm envisioning like a very like. Specific subset of people, which is probably a little bit overweight. We have we asked them about their fitness. They're not not really understanding of their unhealthy. And if you ask them anything about their nutrition, they're they're there in their mind. Their nutrition is pretty good, you know?

Fern:
And Full disclosure, I have I have really run into some road bumps and some of those conversation because I have no idea how to break through and some people like that. So for a coach who's dealing with that person sitting in front of them, who is, you know, what's called 80 pounds overweight and they're telling you that they know how to eat. And you're in the midst of that conversation with your brain exploding. Like how like how do you start to unpack that, to have a productive conversation?

Matt Miller :
This is like the perfect. Like this is like underhand softball tolle's. I love this.

Fern:
Listen, man, I've do this a ton. So I know I know how to. I know how to tee these up.

Matt Miller :
So here's what we're doing. The first thing is we begin with the end in mind.

Matt Miller :
Thank you, Stephen Covey and.

Fern:
Yupe

Matt Miller :
For the purpose for us doing what we're doing. And so it's not checking in the box. It's. And here's another thing. And I'll say this to you. In a loving and caring way, because I thought a lot.

Fern:
Hey, everybody, I'm about to get some feedback on the podcast, so just take notes.

Matt Miller :
Seriously, I say. Somebody that. That really is paying attention and really cares about you as a coach. Like I saw you on Instagram yesterday doing like a performance evaluation or something. That yesterday.

Fern:
I was a couple days ago on the on the best hour of the day Instagram handle, correct.

Matt Miller :
So awesome. So you're sitting there and you're kind of talking to us about what you're looking for in the coach and all of this, having somebody in your organization, at your gym, your affiliate who understands kind of what's going on. If they would say to you, hey, no client is hard. Or they're all hard. But to differentiate a pre contemplated person.

Fern:
Well, when you say a hard what, what do you mean by that?

Matt Miller :
Like, if I were to say, man, you know, those conversations are harder or dealing.

Fern:
Got it.

Matt Miller :
Yeah. So if we could immediately start working on our own psychology. But what I'm going to say is this or accurate acronym is there for when we are kind of Raw and frazzled and we've had a ton of of emotional conversations. Maybe we've done too many groups that day, too many sessions and it happens. You know, we're talking about real life here. Run in the gym. You're doing everything. And what I want to stay is, is I made a person who's 80 pounds overweight.

Matt Miller :
I don't know what their perception is of overweight. And so the only way I'm gonna know is to ask them. And so am I gonna ask them what your perception of obesity? I don't know. Do you think that that's even appropriate? But finding out? What their perception is. Look, I had a guy bring his wife in here. You know, I'm a I'm a socko therapist. I'm a top therapist. That's what I do. Of, you know, every hour on the hour for a living. I'm in private practice here. And so I had a guy come in with his wife. And, you know, he's trying to quit smoking. She scheduled the appointment. So they're in there. They're in here. And over the months, you know, he's just not changed . We get into all kinds of other conversations, distracted away from that. In saying which was the gotten these. Quit smoking the doctor to tell him to kill. And so it's already looking bad biologically, physically for him when he goes for his checkup. Eventually their dog died. They don't have any kids. Their dog does. What do you think the dog died from?

Fern:
Probably secondary smoke inhalation,.

Matt Miller :
Secondary smoke. The dog died. Lung cancer. The wife. What do you think she did as a response?

Fern:
She probably went high and right and I would say worst case scenario decided she was going to leave him or she schedules appointment with you.

Matt Miller :
Well, she definitely did that. But she cried, she cried. You know what he did? He went bought another dog. What is your perpception? Right. What is your perception of your issues? So the way that we find that out is by asking open ended questions, not yes or no questions. We know this addiction trick. When you ask open-ended questions of a person, they immediately get defensive.

Fern:
Yeah. So like an open into question, I'm trying to think of different tactics I've used over the years would be like I've asked people something like, you know, on a scale of one to ten. Right. This is not so open ended, but it gives them an opportunity to kind of like how would you rate your health on whatever scale you feel necessary? And generally that gives me a pretty good idea of it. Is their perception accurate and allows me to frame the conversation a little bit more? If they come in and they say I'm I'm on the verge of dying based on the on these behaviors, then I'm like, OK, cool, we're there. But if they're like, I'm doing OK now, I know I'm in for a far longer, rougher road in order to get this person to look like anything it looks like coming around.

Matt Miller :
Absolutely. So definitely be creative with the tops of open ended questions. Like you said, you eventually find out what kind of works best and it may just be the fact that you deliver it better as time goes on. But open ended questions are really a powerful way to find out, you know, or to find your way into accurate empathy with people. And it doesn't have to be a really long conversation. The better we get at this thing. All right. So, you know, I've talked to a couple of gyms around here who have hired me for like business related, you know, coach and stuff. And when we're talking with the coaches and we bring this up, I've kind of tested this out before. I took the chance and sent an application to Crossfit, headquarters, attests to that with them. And one of the first responses was how we gonna have time to have these conversations? And so I think there's again, before we even start this, we need to know as a culture inside of your affiliate. Are you guys more concerned about having back to back classes? Or is there a cushion in between? You guys talk. Do an amazing job. I've learned so much about Crossfit,, you know, affiliate ownership and how to be a better coach and all that. From your podcast. And I can't thank you guys enough for putting out so much content. But you know what that's like. Some people are rushed to the next class. Who is talking to the pre contemplated person who still can't get a pull up, but you're still overweight. And do they think that you care?

Fern:
Well, I think I'm very hasn't it's ever buy off on the I don't have time excuse. You know, you could always go back with just rephrase. It is it's not a priority thing. Right. In very few scenarios of people that I've met and I've met, I've I know people that are far busier than any gym owner, like any gyms and. It's it's usually a lack of organization. Right. So let's let's just use a gym owner who is coaching back to back to back classes. Well, I mean, you can you have if you're the owner, you have the ability to set your schedule however you want. So my recommendation is don't set consults. If you go if you teach the three, four, five, don't schedule a console for five, fifteen, you know, at least give yourself some time to come down off of that. Maybe find it. And the other thing that we do is in order to kind of wrap our brains around it is we get at least a little bit of information on these people before they come in. So I kind of know what they're looking for. Some people are super open about it. Some people are not. But I can start to frame a little bit of what what needs to happen in the conversation at that point and prepare myself for this person is super scared or there have lost 80 pounds and they want to lose another 80 pounds I'm like OK. This is a substantial journey that we're on here. And so that's just stuff there that we've done. But you can work around that. But what would be an example for you if you have somebody who's coming in, who's primarily come into you and they say, hey, I want to lose weight? Like what would open ended question for somebody that?

Matt Miller :
I like to start, especially if I'm not if I don't have a lot of rapport with the person, if they're new. I just haven't coached them or done a counseling session with them yet. This core acronym is, it looks like, and some of our folks who list makers and row followers. They get to follow it in a linear path. Right. What I believe open ended questions are a way of illicit. Now to people. Yeah, how this thinking about stuff. But I want to take that a stands for affirmations. You know what? Brag on folks if you've met. Dennis buried my first head. Crossfit, coach here. Crossfit, Huntsville. Back in the day when I first started, Dennis Berry was yelling and my name when I step my first foot landed outside of my car. When I would pull up and get out of my car. I could hear him yelling my name inside the box. Guy had the energy. And right off the bat, I'm feeling good about growing up. It's as if he is recognizing may just show up bragging on folks for stuff that you think, hey, you're supposed to do that. You should be doing that. That mindset won't work with people who are calling and freak equation or. And the point about being there.

Fern:
Well, that's that is something that a lot of newer coaches in general. And again, like I'm not saying I'm naturally gifted at this. I've just made the mistake more times in Most. We project our own principles on other people where we're just like, I don't understand why people would not could not do this. And that's just naive at best and super ignorant. We like I try to go the other way, which is like I try not to assume anything about anybody. And I try to assume it sounds terrible, but I try to assume the worst that they have zero motivation. And one thing that I think has helped me is like. Actively seeking out the ability to tee up wins for people, even if it's just in conversation where they say, well, you know, I'm trying to think of an example where somebody comes in, they say, well, you know, we eat out, you know, five times a week. And I said, well, are we eating at home the other two? And they said, yeah, we cook at home and we do that. And I'm like, well, great. So we got two days in the books like let's just try to make it three now. So I think I think like being like and I find myself waiting. Like, really looking and kind of like waiting like almost on pins and needles. Like what? Whereas the first win that I can pull from this person in order to make them feel good about this, because I think those people are incredibly delicate and most of them you have to deal with a much more extremes and I do. But most of them are kind of looking for an excuse to not do it.

Matt Miller :
You know, I'm not sure if it was Coach Glassman that said this first or if it just kind of has become part of the lexicon. But this Tsunami this heading towards us. Well, from a mental health perspective, I definitely agree. Number one, and I want to say opening up and pivoting our approach as a community towards more of a health oriented health care provider approach, if you will. And those are my words. You know, I think that you guys, as Crossfit, coaches our health care providers, not sick care, but health care. But I would say the tsunami is a so a of ambivalence on the part of this new demographic, because when they're standing with a music pounding of those speakers and the people are running around. I think that, you know, and the energy, the pheromones platform, you're going to have somebody who is literally at that moment weighing and measuring the pros and cons of whether they want to come back or not. And so knowing how to deal with ambivalence, it's it's the person who's been there for two years. All right. And they're not all of a sudden they've plateaued out of their mind on everything. What kind of conversation am I going to have with them? Well, open ended questions are great. Affirmations are great. But I got to tell you of the R of the acronym stands for reflective listening? Can you say back to them? What you heard them say in your words. If they tell you, hey, I was able to cook at home to not, but we ate out the other five. So how do you find a way to brag on that? Well, you shared that with me. Do you reflect back that? Accurately, what you think they're really telling you. And this is this becomes something where you literally practice this. And that's one of the things we'll do in the CEU event a man on a practice on each other. And the more experienced the better.

Fern:
Yeah. One of the things I've experimented with is is simply asking them. If my interpretation of what they told me, I'm like, so what I'm hearing you say is that you're unhappy with your weight.

Matt Miller :
I love it.

Fern:
And then I just leave it open and then and people are like, yes, and then don't elaborate on a little bit more. And then and then you just go from there. But there's. And I'd be interested on your thoughts on this. So I think obviously those folks are ambivalent. And I think there's. And I'm gonna have somebody else on the show is going to talk a little bit on mental health, too, because I do think it's important. But I think there's two conversations to be had here. And I know you pride and even plan on this one. But the first one is with the client, the client who comes in. And there's and there's probably two buckets of people. There are those people who are in. Who are those those pre contemplation people. And then those are the people who become ambivalent or just they become indifferent. Right. Because they're not seeing what they want. Then there's two different conversations you have there. But then the third one, I think, is on the business owner side of the house, because I don't think enough people are talking about the mental health of the entrepreneurs, because I think a lot of people are pitching the idea that this is all great. Not to say that it's devastating, you know. It's definitely a rewarding job. But I don't I don't think people are being accurate about the stresses that come along with small business ownership. Like, you know, it's it's it's not for the faint of heart. I will tell you that, like, not everybody crushes it. Like, most people probably struggle financially. And that has incredible wear on people over time. And then that, in turn reflects on you as a person, inhibits your ability to have these conversations with other people. Because if I'm dealing with things internally, it's incredibly difficult for me to have empathy for other people.

Matt Miller :
You have hit the nail on the head. And I believe that people who are just checking boxes of are they kind of get exposed pretty quickly. The more people that they deal with. So when you're Raw and frazzled and you have, as we say in the counseling profession, you have compassion fatigue. You know, yeah. Oh, you gotta do is ask my wife and maybe ask years, you know, how is it you can be so nice and helpful to all those clients that you come home and blah, blah, blah. So no, what I empty tank man. And there are people who are empty in the tank every day with good intentions. This is the conversation we need to have with our coaches and our coaches meetings and all this kind of stuff. Guys, are you guys remembering to ask open ended questions? Ya know, that's my vision. What they are we use in these, you know, the state of the science. You know, I gotta be careful evidence base as far as I know, valid and reliable practices, best practices that we use in the behavioral science and our coaching and with each other.

Fern:
So what would be your advice? So like what does something that like a business owner like me could do? So, you know, like I have no problem saying this. Like, my wife and I have been to counseling on numerous for different things. You know, we went to counseling after our daughter was born because I was a really traumatic experience. We've been to counseling for just marital issues where, you know, nothing crazy, but like just inability to communicate on things or stress and then having to unpack that and understand that I'm not actually mad at you. I'm just stressed. And I'm not really sure how to deal with that because I don't understand how you're feeling. But that but what you mentioned there is one we. I wouldn't say we have it like really frequently, but it's not. We've had the conversation about. You know, you have to be able to to do to do both things right. You have to be able to show care with with their clients. You also have to be. Not necessarily empty the tank there so that you can go home and care about your wife and your kids because, you know, forget the business. At the end of day, that's all I really got. Like, that's I got my wife, my kids, like, you know, hopefully. So what like for somebody who on the verge of that burnout because we did another episode on burnout like water. Are there any like tactics or tips or tricks you can do as far as like resetting yourself before you go home to your wife so that you don't, like, jump all over them because you're frustrated about some crap that happened at the box?

Matt Miller :
Absolutely. First, let me say that we are a aurel consumptive. Think. Say that or to society when stress. We put things in things we eat things. We take things orally. And the number one way to deal with not just stress, but what we would call distress, which is stress, anxiety, irrational panic, irrational expectations. We also use the same thing, our mail. We talk. That's how you deal with that's the natural release bout of pressure for us. And so what I'm going to suggest to you is, of course, there is a lot of little tactics and strategies. I mean, you know what, Greg? All this and talk about Bob's breathing, that's helpful. But you got to let me know that you need to exercise and eat. Right. That helps you. But you're still expect pressing things up. So we're saying talk about it and talk about it with someone who thinks it's for empathy with you and not going to be just suck it up and pull your bootstraps up and be glad. People would crawl on the broken glass to be in your position. Suck it up. You know, that has caused as much harm. Yeah. Bad that he just say no. Of the addiction treatment world. You know, what we did is we found out. I'll try to hurry on this.

Fern:
No, you're good.

Matt Miller :
There was a smoke cessation study that was done. It was the state of the art world class. It's the to helping people quit smoking. And we offered it for free. It was at the University of Maryland. I say, we, the failed of counseling and psychology. They offered it for free. Of the people that were offered, 10 percent took it free. 10 % took the opportunity. So, you know, motivation is a new. Some people think people lack motivation because they quit something, they want something. We see it in the translator, radical model of change. The stages are pretty contemplation than contemplation. But then the next one is planning most of the time. It's not a motivation issue. It's a planning issue. You don't lack motivation. You lack planning.

Fern:
Yeah, they don't know what to do. Right. That's yeah, that's and that's the biggest thing. And that's why most people that, again, fall in this chronic disease bucket this or this or we'll just we'll just broadly call it the population that we are trying to reach out to, the people that are not fitness enthusiasts, like literally everybody else. I have. Have found that it's I don't think it's lack of motivation. Yes. There are some people that lack motivation and they will never do anything. And like those people are out with the rest of them are just at a loss. Like they literally have no plan. They don't know what they don't know what, you know, how to allocate their time, their money, their resources, the value of exercise, like how to prioritize exercise, how to set their frickin alarm clock. Like it's a behavior thing, which is what we talk about. You know, it's like fitness, money and nutrition are all the same. They're all behavior based. Like if you can if you can wrap your brain around, like water my behaviors and then figure out how to combat my own behaviors or combat your behaviors, then I think you can start to have a head start to have a conversation with people. And that's something that I found super valuable with myself as like like whether it be money or or nutrition or fitness or some or whatever. It's just like, okay, what is my current behavior? How is that sabotaging me? And then what can I start to do to create that plan that you talked about to combat those behaviors? Because I'm not going to change it at first. I mean, you told me you're the professional. But like in my experience, I'm never going to change it.

Matt Miller :
I just have to battle with it for a while until I can begin to change it to a planning is so crucial in so many aspects of our lives. Of course, this is not anything new. But I can tell you from a behavioral science, then on and from my own experience, when I have people come in who are referred by the criminal justice system, which I do a lot of work with legally coerced people. Right. So they're not the healthiest of campers when they come in and say, hey, man. No written program. And you're gonna have to ask to leave early for more. And I'm won't put you on a color code drug testing system. Somebody is going to observe you paying and all of this kind of stuff. Would you say their pre contemplated contemplated? I don't know and do an assessment with them and find out and ask them open ended questions, and I bring this up to say that I can immediately start planning with a person who is even showing signs of ambivalence or even opposition and defiance. I start planning with them as early as possible. So I would say to your earlier question that I probably ran a couple of rabbits with if I'm a gym owner who is frazzled and raw or wore out from doing back to back to back classes and trying to run the gym and have uncomfortable conversations and have accurate empathy. What do you do for them? What can they do? They can sit down at the kitchen table with a low heart rate. Ok. Tell all the people that they love that for this one hour. Understand? I'm OK, but you won't go to reach me one hour. I'm going to invest one hour, and what I'm gonna do is I'm going to plan out how I can keep losing my freakin mind at work. And so they do. You showed it the other day, class planning. Well, that's how we got to plan our day. That's how we plan our business with a plan. And and the plan includes talking to someone who is unbiased. And look, I know this is self-promoting, but I believe in the power of sitting with an objective, skilled professional who's not going to judge you, at least not out where lay. They're gonna be professional. Look, I've got a I've got a coach. I've got a mentor, somebody who I go to. Pretty much every coach needs a coach, man. You know,.

Fern:
It's it's something like my wife and I have worked on it. Like where? Where we kind of talk these things out and then I recognized. So I, you know, obviously do this podcasts. And I. If you're kind of in my inner circle, like most people, takes them all like I can seem argumentative, meaning like like I'm quick to have an argument, but. For people that know me, it's not because I like to be argumentative. For the sake of being argumentative, I genuinely enjoy the the the the playing of tennis with ideas. It's just like I'm going to say something and then I really enjoy you coming back with a counteroffer. And then we go back there with in many instances with no desire to win, simply to just play the game of batting ideas and conversation back and put that can. But that drives my wife insane. Like she doesn't want to do that. So. So we defined it as I like what is described as mental jousting like because I just find it stimulating. So when I get into that state, like I know recognize it and I'll have to stop myself and say, hey, listen, I'm I'm not jousting with you right now. I genuinely need to know this information and it and it and it really heads off some things where where where she would just spin off and like, you know, kick me in the shin or something like that.

Fern:
So I think if you can figure out like from a coaching standpoint, if you know that, like you're strung up or you're strung out, by the end of the day, it's like, recognize that. I think simply recognizing that and maybe sitting in your car for five minutes before you go home or maybe, you know, isolating yourself 10 to 15 minutes before you do a sit down with a client who, you know, is coming in here that might be challenging to work with, like get your mind right, like it. But that works. But I do have another question in here. And so we're talking a lot about, you know, using these tactic and doing this. And I know there's somebody who's listening to this and it's just like kind of throwing their hands up and saying, hey, listen, where does being direct fall in here? Like at what point just be like, listen, you're overweight or you eat like crap or you skip training days like, I don't know how to tell you this. And no amount of me open asking you open into questions is going to get us where we need to be. Like at some point, if you like, you need to tell you that you suck. You know what? Like, where does that fall in from a coaching standpoint?

Matt Miller :
Absolutely. Such a fair question. And that's. It's our own personal opinion. It's there's a time and a place for being assertive in this way, not aggressive, but assertive, right. So instead of saying you're obese, that's why you can't link 5 chest the bar. You're throw in your belt down and storming out before classes is over. What? What's wrong with saying, man, what's going on? Open ended question. Dude, you were totally intense in that workout. Look like you're having a great workout and then shut up and listen to them. And then if they show you that they're in action mode, you know, pretty contemplation, contemplation, preparation act. And if they tell you by how they act or the open ended question, the things you need to hear to suck and whether they're in this or that stack, then, you know, hey, they just opened the door for me. Look, you lose 30 pounds, man. Would you like to work on a way to do that?

Fern:
Yeah, I think that's super important because I think some people and I've admittedly, I've been there's more. I just like get frustrated and I'm like, you are not. You're just delusional about whatever it is. And I've been delusional myself. I'm not perfect by any means. But, you know, like there's certain times when I wish somebody would have come in direct and said, hey, listen, this isn't the time for me to be huggy on you. Like I'm going. I'm going to give you the tough love that you need. Now, granted, like I respond well to that, but not everybody does. Right. So I've I've been an instance where I project my own responses onto other people and it's and it's not worked, you know. So sometimes you do have to be a little bit more soft with people about how you address them. But no, I do think so. Attached to that, I've learned to use. And I remember where I learned this. I think I think I talk about Chick-Fil-A a lot just because I think they do a lot of things. Well, in one of our members here is operates two restaurants, but their thing is never assume, you know, what kind of day the person at the window is having. And I think if we operate under the guise of like. Hey, this person could very well be having a terrible day. I think inherently we just approach things differently. Like I'm not going to assume that you're ready to joke around today or or stuff like that. So I think it's like you kind of like test the waters real quick and then, OK, you're good or you're not. And then I ask, hey, like, are you OK? Like, what's up? And that's something that I've learnt probably only gotten good out within the last couple of years is when I see somebody who's off. That's the first thing I ask them. Are you all right? Because there is something going on. You wanna sit down and talk about it. And I mean, dude, you would be shocked at some of this shit that people have told me. You know, like this. This is interesting because like, coaches are not counselors, but we're kind of counselors.

Matt Miller :
A, let me say this, I want to piggyback off of that. You know, Dr. Kevin Elko. Are you familiar with how.

Fern:
I'm not.

Matt Miller :
Hes like Nick Saban. You know, mental performance guru guy that he does. So he comes and speaks. The difference goes and speaks to sports teams and operations and stuff. Anyway, Dr. Elko said something. You and I were trained by a guy named Doc Jacobs and Cognitive Behavioral Psychology. But anyway, Dr. Elko. He said if every person you met, if you just assume and presuppose on every single person, you may. After our conversation that every one of them's hurting. They're hurting. Parents in emotional pain. How? What would your body language be like? Like how do you look at your friend when they say their parent just passed away? What? And so how would you talk or how much would you listen? How much self-control would you have? How would you approach that? He said. So the funny thing is, is that you would be right. It's actually true that all people are struggling with something. This is not a pessimistic point of view. This is a highly emotionally intelligent way, I think, not just me, but in general for people to view human beings. Everybody's got their own. I love your approach where you test the water. And if there's one thing that a coach actually taught me. Coach years ago, he said, look, the first day he actually brought the parents out. It's like middle school football. But he did the smartest thing, I think still to this day and I use this the first time I met clients . How would you like for me to handle you not following my directions? How would you like me approach? In essence, do you like to be coached?

Fern:
Yeah.

Matt Miller :
But in a way that you do get on your tail that beat around the bush line.

Fern:
Yeah. And that's what kind of. That's what kind of athlete I was, which means I had a lot of work to do in the coaching realm because I was just listen, give me both barrels. You can yell at me all day like hold me underwater forever. Like it doesn't matter. Like it just. That's where that's generally how I responded. Well. One thing that I've learned to do and this is going to sound incredibly mundane and just not important at all, but a very simple question that if you just ask people when they come in, the gym will probably give you more information than you could possibly imagine. I just give him a high five and say, how are you feeling? And their response to that based on their body language, their facial expressions and the words they use, it gives me a pretty accurate idea of what I'm dealing with that day, I feeling. And they'll be like that. You know, they'll do that one or they're like, man, I feel great about a good week. And I'm like, okay, cool. Or, you know, they're just like, I don't know. It's been a rough week. Like, they will tell you and I. And then I can open follow up with some other questions after that.

Fern:
But it gives me an idea of like, is this person going to shit the bed in a workout today? And if they do now, what am I going to do about it? Like where normally I would get on this person, but today I'm gonna cut him some slack and walk over and just say, hey, just take it easy. Just move today. I know you're having a rough day. Don't care what the time says. Just finish it. We'll be done, you know. But I think that that simple question of how you feeling has been like super beneficial for me, because in the responses are not lengthy by any means. But the body language, the facial expressions and the words they use generally give me I would tell you like 80 to 90 percent accuracy of what I'm going to be dealing with that day in the class. And I don't think we ask enough questions. We just assume everybody is there and ready to and ready to throw down. And some people are there just to, you know, literally get a break from the craziness and disaster that is their life.

Matt Miller :
You could say the best hour of their day. Absolutely. I love that question. How are you feeling? Is an open question. Awesome.

Fern:
And it goes a lot of different ways, right. So it's like, how are you feeling physically? How are you feeling emotionally? How are you feeling psychologically? And most people's answer is going to go to the one, whichever one of those three that they're currently dealing with. So like just by default, they're going to give you the most important piece of information that they're currently feeling at that point. And I think it's a really, really important one. And so I just ask you about all the time just how you feeling? And I like I mean, it is like dead. Every single time dead on. I'm just like, okay, all right. I'm just gonna leave you alone. Or or if you're ready to go, I'm gonna be all over you today. So I think that's where it comes in is like this, this ability to be a coach and meet people where they're at. I don't think you can. I don't think you can just meet people there out. I think you have to know where they're at first and then you can work on meeting them where they're at. So this is very cool. OK. So the the the CTU for everybody to miss. There's a course on there for your level 2, level 3 or actually for your level three and then eventually for your level four, which I believe is supposed to be online in twenty twenty. But different subject, OARS the art and science of uncomfortable conversation and or as the acronym stands for Open into questions, affirmation, reflective listening. And then what was the S format.

Matt Miller :
The S is For summarize and this is really where we work. But what it is we're agreeing on as a partnership, not a dictatorship, even though they know you're in a position of authority. The more we can then and the kind of relationship with them that is a cohort more than a dictator. But the summary is really taken. Everything that you heard from them, everything you're experiencing and then have the met and we talked about where do we go from here? So what? Now what does it say?

Fern:
And then the other piece of that was, so you have your your folks that are pre contemplation.

Matt Miller :
Your complation,.

Fern:
Contemplation, your action, folks, and then your planning. Right. So the vast majority people that we deal with are probably in contemplation or action actually even more so prob'ly an action for Crossfit gym. So where we need to develop some skill set is that kind of pre contemplation, contemplation lane and then this is where we can start to use that OARS so in order to meet people where they're at so that we can get them on board because these are the people that need us the most, right? Like the people that are in your gym, like you're just giving them more of what they already have. And at some point we have to decide like a really broad population about there, people out there that are dealing with the tsunami of chronic disease or doba or ambivalence, like you said. And how do we start to communicate with those people? And it starts with a plan no different than your lesson plan. You know, you're trying to bring in more and more people like what is your plan for talking to people who are we'll just call it what it is unlikely to purchase your service.

Matt Miller :
Yes. So, you know, Fern. I know you're probably getting close to wrapping up, but I've got to throw this out here.

Fern:
Yeah, go ahead.

Matt Miller :
In the addiction treatment world, and let's say in around the late 80s, early 90s when I started getting into this field. We really as a treatment community, we were still doing what's called confrontation. We still saw that as a therapeutic technique. We would we would confront people in group therapy about relapse, the bad acting in ways that are going to lead to relapse, about acting in ways that create triggers that will lead to relapse. All that stuff and. And we also viewed people who didn't follow our directions. People are not ready and we would judge them and we would say now this hasn't been that long ago. Have you ever heard this? The person just hasn't hit rock bottom yet.

Fern:
Yep.

Matt Miller :
This was wrong. A person doesn't have to lose everything. To be prepared, to be motivated to change. And so what we learned is finding out where they are relative to their perception of their problem. Where are the. Are they already in contemplation? And they're just waiting for the person, the right person to have accurate empathy with them, to say, hey, man, I can see where you're weighing the pros and cons here and the devil, you know, is better than the one you don't know. So not making that decision is safe. Right. We just say, hey, we'll wait on them. We waited around to jail, institutionalization or death, which is the three out on the street. Continue. At least taken abusing substances. So I don't want this to be that way when this so tsunami of ambivalence while there locked doors as we continue to promote trading and helping this new population. Thank you so much for letting me do this with you.

Fern:
Yeah, absolutely. This is fun. And I think I think it is important because I think as we start to, you know, cast that larger net for people. I do think what we're going to find is that a lot of us are woefully ill equipped to start to deal with Congress, that population. But that doesn't mean we can't develop those skills. And and a lot of what we're going to be difficult we're dealing with as we start to wade into those waters is very similar, if not the exact same as addiction, because most of these people are dealing with what's just food addiction. You know what I mean? So it's not like it's it's the same, you know, like we still have to approach this from a almost from a from. From a clinical standpoint, not as clinicians, but from from a strategic standpoint, you know, because that stuff has been proven to work. And there's some really cool stuff out there, is there? So we talked about maybe a couple of books, so there was motivational interviewing. But is there anything else that you would recommend for like coaches, gym owners, that they can really deep dive on this stuff so that they can start to sharpen that, sharpen the ax on like how to start to have these conversations?

Matt Miller :
You know, what I'm going to recommend to you guys is to do your own study on motivational interviewing, anything by Dr. Miller or Rollin Neck R O L L I and I see K Miller and Raul and that are the authorities on motivational interviewing as a counselling style to help people deal with things like ambivalence or being stuck in one of these stages of change. Yeah.

Matt Miller :
And then pro Chaska, I believe this is the net got and University of Maryland who did a lot of the work on the translator, radical model of change. I think it will make you much more competent. You're already competent and so much that's helping me, folks. If you're a Crossfit, Koepp around the world, you're already doing amazing things. I think this is just another tool for me because, you know, as I say, if all you ever say are males, all you ever use as a hammer, hammer of view, all of this stuff as a mental health issue, all of us say that, you know, are the treatment plan for some ModCloth. You need to find that Crossfit, box. And I think that as yet the answer, but it is one of the tools and.

Fern:
I think that's key is is not the only answer and we just can't fix things with exercise. Like there's there's a lot more that goes into that. Yes, that exercise can help with depression and it can be an avenue for some people. But it's not going to solve people's problems. Like, you know, coming in and doing burpees and thrusters is not the answer to, you know, mental health is definitely a tool. It's one of many tools we have in our tool bag in order to address that. But it's not the only thing. The other thing I had in here, I found it well is collective coaching. So if anybody's interested in proactive coaching, it's it's very it's like it falls in that Stephen Covey kind of like genre of books and some really stuff in there. But it's very long. It's very, very similar to motivational interviewing. It's a lot of open ended questions about like trying to get people to give you information with regard to like what they're feeling. Stuff like that. So this has been fun. I think this is super valuable for the community, particularly as we start to really try to write, try to serve the underserved population, which is primarily like the chronically ill, because I think these skill sets are what we're all going to have to develop, you know. But these are these are things that are useful with just your everyday relationships as well. So it's not like this is just for clients. So this is cool.

Matt Miller :
Awesome. I appreciate you guys. Are you familiar with Victor Frankl?

Fern:
Yep. Yeah. With man's search for meaning? Yeah.

Matt Miller :
Yeah. In that book, he says and I just you know, this helps me. As you said earlier, you gotta find a way to get your mind off some. Victor Frankl, who I guess we can safely say expect some trauma and some discomfort in his life.

Fern:
That would be an understatement. Yeah.

Matt Miller :
Dr. Frankel says somewhere in there and I'm paraphrasing, but I highly recommend the book to everyone.

Fern:
Man, Yeah, it's just short. Yeah, it's a short read, too. It's not a big book.

Matt Miller :
Read somewhere. And they're buried like a you know, like a treasure, he says. He says success must not be pursued. It must ensue. As an unintended byproduct of one's dedication to someone other than themselves. And this is really selfless in many ways to leave our best days, our best moments. In the end, the counseling office and in my experience on the gym floor and years maybe all across the country for you as you try and PayPal, some of our best moments are used in places other than with our friends and loved ones. But remember that that's what this is about. We chose that, right? Yeah, this is what we chose. Maybe it goes up.

Fern:
Yeah. No, I think it's cool. And I think CASSIDY brought it up in in a previous episode, which is one way to measure that is to kind of keep your second only keep yourself on the hook a bit like our people. Better for having been in my presence. And that's a pretty that's a pretty heavy burden to bear. If you think about it. But that's that's what you signed up for if you do this. So. Matt, I appreciate this man. This was this was fun for me. So I can't thank you enough for this. If you guys have questions for Matt Yeon's, it's Matt Miller coaching, correct?

Matt Miller :
Yes Sir.

Fern:
Matt Miller coaching. But if you have other questions about, you know, some of the some of the more nerdy stuff that we were talking about, please hit us up. We can hand you off to map and look him up and we will get you guys in touch. But thank you again, sir. I appreciate it.

Matt Miller :
Thank you.

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