118. Dr. Nathan Jenkins | The Game Changers

118. Dr. Nathan Jenkins | The Game Changers

On today’s show, Ackerman welcomes back Dr Nathan Jenkins, who you guys the listeners loved last time. On this episode, they will be talking about the new Netflix documentary Gamechangers, which states that you don’t need plate base t was Executive produced by James Cameron, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jackie Chan, which are some big names when it comes to bodybuilding, among other things. They discuss their own opinions about it and how much bias there is. Also the topic they focus on the chronic health epidemic and how all of us can do something that will help with this problem. 

Time stamps:

(16:44) Making a change in America
(24:22) The Game Changers

Social Media 

Instagram: @gainzbydrj
Gmail: Gainzbydrj@gmail.com

Crossfit Journal – Dr Nathan Jenkin’s: https://journal.crossfit.com/article/science-jenkins

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Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Sounds good man.

Ackerman:
All right, we're back. A second interview with Dr. Nathan Jenkins. Welcome, Nathan.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Hey Jason, thanks, man.

Ackerman:
Or Doc, what do you prefer?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Friggin calling my first name.

Ackerman:
You know, I. I have found that p_h_d_ often times are almost like embarrassed to use the word doctor. But your doctor.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, some of them some of us are fine. I found a direct correlation with that, actually.

Ackerman:
What's the deal with. What?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
The ones who want to be called doctor have like tend to have a little bit of insecurity, kind of a complex.

Ackerman:
Are they the same people that would shave reps at a Crossfit the class?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yes. Yes.

Ackerman:
So.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
So it's like. Unless I'm in a at my actual professional setting where I have undergraduate students. You want to address me those kids, I just like let them figure it out. They can call me Nathan. They call me Dr. Jenkins Muslim. Call me Dr. J. But I just like, leave it alone. Otherwise freaking please use my first name right now.

Ackerman:
I would like to give respect. I like to get the respect. I have a masters and I know how hard that was to achieve. So I can only imagine how much harder it was to get your p._h._d. I'll refer to you as doc going forward. But so far. So, Doc, you're at the University of Georgia. You've been on this. I mean, I truly don't know what's more. Prestigious, a prestigious credential, the fact that you have your p._h._d. Or this is your second appearance on best hour of their day.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Well, the bees do it. I got that a long time ago. This is like new and fresh for me. And I think you guys are doing some great work. So I have actually sincerely honored to be back on the podcast. This is this is really cool for me.

Ackerman:
We appreciate it. Anybody can get a p._h._d. Not anybody can. Come on Bezerra their day, let alone. Weiss. All right. And we certainly want to have you on more more than that, because you've kind of become the spokesperson for us with Crossfit Health for an interview, Drew already. Then we got to see you at the summit. And let me tell you, the Crossfit, training staff is a very hard staff to win over and they love you. They absolutely loved you. And that's very unique. I was at a summit. Man, it have had like six or seven years ago. And don't worry, these lights are a motion detector. They just went, I'm where I am. I'm gonna sit here in the dark. It's all good. But they tore the guest speaker apart. I was I was like, really feeling sorry for this guy. And and I mean, you won over the crowd and it helps because you're Crossfit,. I think that's important for everyone to realize you're doing this research. You're trying to really grow Crossfit, healthy. You're pushing us in the right direction. But it really stems from your devotion and dedication and love, just like all of us, all the listeners to the Crossfit, methodology.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah. The best hour, my day every day is when I get to go work out. So.

Ackerman:
So where are you doing that right now?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
The affiliate. I got this call, Crossfit, Oconee. It's in walk-ins Ville, Georgia. I live in Athens, Georgia. But this is the next town over walk-ins. What actually turns out to be closest to my house. And yes, I work out every day like either 4:30 or 5:30 in the afternoon.

Ackerman:
Have you gained a little bit of notoriety there? Like, are they like, oh, that's the guy that's. Or is it kind of over the heads of most of the box members?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Good question. I'm a little bit. But I also. I mean, it's a great community that people as the people there that like really keep going back and keep me keep a stay in there. It's like it's an awesome community. And they for the most part. I feel like for me, I'm just a regular person at the gym like every day. And we're all kind of like hardworking professionals and we all come there to like de-stress. And once in a while, because I've been to like HQ a couple of times and gave a talk there and I'll post some stuff in the in our private member's Facebook group when I'm doing stuff like that. And she will kind of get excited, like, well, what is they can. And they know that I'm a professor and I do Crossfit, or any research. But for the most part, people, it's all just everyday regular people. Right. And I'm just one of them. And my wife is, too. Yeah. So like a little bit dance. your question. But for the most part, not really like they. They also know that I go there to de-stress. So I don't get like a lot of you know, that we have a guy who's a divorce lawyer at our gym. And he also has made it pretty clear to the members there is like, please don't ask me questions about like we I'm here in the boxes where I kind of de-stress and it's like the same thing with my work is way less stressful or not. But hey, I'm kind of thing.

Ackerman:
So if I were to become a divorce lawyer, then I would hang out in a Crossfit, box. So that's really the best place to get new clients. I've seen plenty of marriages. All right. Across the of box.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I would agree with you.

Ackerman:
So for those that maybe haven't heard of you before or didn't listen to the previous episode where Fern and you had a deep dive discussion, what would you say is your elevator pitch to what you're doing for Crossfit, right now?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Well, what I'm doing for Crossfit, is I'm a consultant for really training departments where my contract, my current contract is with with Nicole. And what I'm doing is designing a course on exercise physiology that'll be offered online. And it's going to be 10 modules, basically 10 different lectures on different topics related to exercise physiology. So like the metabolic energy systems and hormonal responses to exercise. Exercise in men versus women exercising kids exercise aging. These are all some examples of the different modules in there similar to the lectures that I give in my exercise physiology class at the university. But Taylor, specifically for the Crossfit, methodology and the tailor to the target audience of Crossfitters and people who are maybe looking for continuing education in their advanced to their coaching credentials and so forth. And within the Crossfit, training sort of space and Crossfit, trained department. So that's my that's been my main contracted work for Crossfit, and I've also been. Not a contractual.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Really? But just kind of casually working with and spent some time with the folks over in the Crossfit, Health Department like Current and gone to a couple of the meetings that they call the DDC or their doctors club meetings at HQ a couple of times now. And I got an opportunity to present one of those as well. So. So since my work is an area of Crossfit, and or is our exercise in cardio metabolic disease a general that's been a natural connection as well. So we're talking with all the physicians and the different people involved with the Crossfit, health.

Ackerman:
So obviously we're already in the midst of your journey to become a p_h_d_ in your exercise physiology degree before finding Crossfit,. What I will play in your Crossfit, journey, do you say, hey, this shit is really good and I should be focusing on this versus whatever you are working on in the past?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah, well my my background with the ad is actually up my time. I know, I know. I look young and I don't think the listeners are seeing my face.

Ackerman:
We'll put a nice pic. We'll find of you out there.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I've been I've had PHD for coming up on a decade now and I been a professor for seven years. And so for most of my research background in my research career has been not a Crossfit, related at all, but it's been in this general area of exercises, prevention and treatment of cardio metabolic disease. And. It was actually through students that I was teaching and exercise physiology class. I even got exposed to the whole idea of Crossfit, and looking at the science of it because we're talking about is like twenty, fourteen or so. Not that long ago, that decision is class. And after a discussion on trends and fads and fitness in class, a couple of students who actually one of whom had her level one. Came up to me after class. Like so many think about Crossfit, and being a mainstream exercise scientist, I had only heard I had only just heard of it and I had not actually taken the time to look into it that much. Of course, by 2014, most people had heard of Crossfit,. So that's the thing where they climb the ropes and put the tires and get injured and stuff, right?

Ackerman:
Yeah. classic.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
But then, you know, the Pompton is like, okay, see insurrectionist, let me see if I can incorporate my classroom. And I looked into it and it was interesting enough to me that I said, OK, I need to like explore this, tried out and cut to cut to the chase, because if you if anyone's the for the listeners who did hear this story, I'm the convo with Fern. Basically, I decided to try Crossfit, for one year. And it took its I haven't really looked back. I was twenty, fifteen and that was it was towards the end of that or really actually kind of a growth. Gradual snowball effect kind of thing where I have progressively cooperated more and more of Crossfit, ideas and methodologies and doctrines and so forth into my professional, into my work and both my teaching and my research.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
So my job was 50 50 teaching and research, and we're just starting to really gather steam on that. So. Yeah, so that it was really after that in that process that you answer your question. 2015/2016 is when I've really started incorporating more more of that. Crossfit, ideas into my work.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
What's one thing you learned during your p._h._d. Program? Now you no longer believe is true since you've started Crossfit,.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
So there's a bunch of things. And you might recall I had a slide on this at my at the summit where I got to present.

Ackerman:
Yeah.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I used to believe, for example, I wish I had them from oh ison this damn computer. But.

Ackerman:
Don't touch your computer. We had enough technical difficulty.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yes. Now we did have them before we start. Now my. One thing that I used to believe was true. I don't think it's true anymore because of Crossfit, is. And by the way, this will be something that is actually you could find papers to support this in the scientific literature, but I don't actually think it's correct, is that if all you do is meet the physical activity guidelines from the U.S. federal government, which is 30 to 60 minutes a day of moderate to vigorous physical activity. So one hundred fifty minutes of moderate intensity, physical activity per week, then you're doing enough to get by. I don't actually think that that is an accurate, scientifically defensible, accurate statements.

Ackerman:
How would you rephrase it? I would rephrase it by.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Saying that you did that the whole idea of our debt was so I articulated there is an approximation of our guidelines for physical activity, for health and to to prevent a premature demise. But I don't think it's enough to get by. I think instead I would just rephrase it completely away from the whole idea of volume, which does is what that prescription is, is how much physical activity should you be doing to check the box? And instead, I would rephrase it by saying we should be pursuing an improvement in our work capacity and our ability to do whatever it it like there to do X, and we could fill that blank in with a lot of different things, whether it's a strength type activity, which is where I would start from the general public health standpoint, because that's what most people would like. And then the nursing home or a cardiovascular sort domain cardiorespiratory dance or a domain, which is what so many of us are limited in. And so forth. But basically the big picture is without diving too much into the minutia of it, is have a goal like a physical performance and fitness oriented goal instead of checking the box like did I did I do this amount of activity today or did I not do it, et cetera?

Ackerman:
Sounds like the new answer has to be basically fitness in one hundred words.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I think that's a better guide.

Ackerman:
That would Great.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
You go a head.

Ackerman:
I said I'd be a great guy. Imagine if the world all of a sudden said, OK, instead of just, hey, we're gonna move for 30 minutes, whatever that represents, we're actually gonna eat beats eventually that seed some for a little starch, no sugar, we're gonna keep intake levels, etc. You know, we're gonna clean, we're gonna jerk, we're gonna practice the basics lifts.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah, I think that's a lot. And you know, I mean, I think the experiment in that is has been ongoing. And I think we've got the data. I think it works. And I mentioned to you guys at the summit, like you on the seminar staff, I regard you as industry scientists. I'm an academic scientist. I work at the university in the ivory tower. You're an industry scientist where you're testing out an idea, a methodology that where your laboratory is the marketplace.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
And do it in the laboratory of the marketplace. If something's not successful, it's not going to work. And it's not going to be a viable business strategy. And what is Crossfit,, if not the fastest growing exponential rate of growth? The curve for the explosion of Crossfit, over the last 10, 15, 20 years, we haven't seen anything like that ever. And the core of that is fitness in 100 words. And the results are just profound. We don't have. We don't have. I would love to see more numbers, especially with this, but we don't really need it. The the the physiological adaptation is something that in the academic space, we will. We will. We wish we had that. The profound effects on body composition and cardio metabolic health. We just we don't have that with our. With what we've come up with. As far as the optimal approach, whereas fitness in 100 words and pursuing an improvement of work capacity across board times domains. I mean, Crossfitters done that. In a different type of experimental model, which is which is industry.

Ackerman:
Well, I want to get a little conceptual with you for the listeners. Prior to this, I kind of ask the doc, I was like, hey, what do you want to talk about? What do we do? You really said, hey, I want to do whatever it takes to help. Box owners to help the community, to help the industry, right? And that's what's awesome. You know, having recently driven from Florida to Colorado and I traveled the world delivering these seminars. You see the problem. It's evident you drive through Kansas. You see the problem. Georgia, Kentucky. You know, we didn't veer off of 70. So we were eating at the fast food places. You know, every X amount of miles, there's a sign on the side of the road that has six local fast food restaurants. And we go in there and there's obese people.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah.

Ackerman:
So my conceptual question to you is you're an exercise physiologist. I'm a Crossfit, or a Crossfit, coach. What's it going to take to make a change in this country? I'm not even talking about the world. What can we do? I mean. I saw the buddy, my buddy of mine, Kyle. Full disclosure, you remind me exactly of when you were talking at the summit. I was like, that's my buddy Kyle up on stage. And I was really like, I still as we're talking some nice don't forget that you're not him, but he's he's about to my eyes are 8. OK. He's a smart, great looking guy. And so we we talked a lot about it on the way because he's just starting his nursing career. He just took his test. You know, he's moving forward and we we stopped at one stop.

Ackerman:
And we had been talking a lot about diabetes and there was a guy who is overweight and his ankles. This is no joke and it almost makes me like, tear up because I'm sad. Ankle's have like purple fans around. And when I say purple bands, I'm not talking like he was wearing something I'm saying. His skin was discolored to the point that his purple, he had like a fluid around his legs. And like in your mind, like, what the fuck is wrong with this dude? You know, and I'm a little harsh. I'm a very cold turkey. Tell me what to do kind of guy. I don't know. So it's easy to me. Hey, you have a problem? Do X. This guy knows he has a problem. His ankles are purple. What's it going to take? Doc, give me the answer. You said, what can I do to help this community? Give us the answer, because that's what's going to help. Crossfit, affiliate's grow. How do we get those people to understand me? Crossfit, not dangerous. You know, you have to eat this way, you have to do these things, we have a great community. It's going to change your life. You're gonna get divorced. We got a divorce lawyer for you. We're all set up. You're good to get up. How do we get them? How do we explain that to people,.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
On mann? Well, usually I'm the one asking these questions to my students, like the impossible.

Ackerman:
So let flip it

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah. So it's flipped right now. They'll love that. But I've got to ask. I got stumped.

Ackerman:
Well, and I understand there's no answer. No. But at some point, it's like, you know, and for all the people that are hating on Coach Glassman it's like that's what he's trying to do.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
But that's what he's trying to do. And actually evidence to this is that he and I share his view on this, is that I don't have a lot of hope for the public health. You know, I'm not sure that. I think it would be naive of us to think like, hey, we can fix this, this massive global epidemic. And, you know, you're talking about global time. Let us find us epidemic that. We just can't even get our heads around how big this problem of chronic disease actually is. I mean, we can put it in financial terms. It's got enough. The cost of all of this, like diabetes, obesity, etc. has enough zeros on it that I I just cannot get my mind around that amount of money.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Maybe you can, but I can't help.

Ackerman:
Come on. They got to talk to the University of Georgia. They gonna give you a raise?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Haha. But yeah. So like it's just a tremendous problem. And I'm not terribly optimistic that we can solve it. But what we can do is I can take my personal approach, man is just. Look at what's what what what influence I have in the circles that I run it and write like they call it, spheres of influence or whatever. I've got a team of three doctoral students and we're doing Crossfit, or any research and we're gonna publish that research and get it out there. Small studies. We're just getting started.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Very humble beginnings. Who knows where it's going to go? It's the same thing as like the local affiliate opening up and they're going to have versus. 10 members and then its 30 members and 50 is 100, 200. And then that impacts the community. Right. And then it's just I don't think that we should set out to be with these like super grandiose, astronomical, unachievable goals. It's more like, what can you do with what you have right now and then see what happens.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Right. So I don't that's a cop out answer, but that's that's my that's my take on it because it is overwhelming. Like, why bother? Like, if you think if you think of it in the OK, let's solve it. The whole thing then it's like it's too big. Why bother Amazon's stock. Not having bother to try. But now there's like things we can do here and there with the here and now. And that's that's that is what I'm personally what I'm doing with my with my research is to focus it on. Well, there's a lot of opportunity with the science research that has been done. A lot of it falls short of actually addressing thing with questions of like work capacity. And if you if you do an exercise out in an acute setting and look at some health marker where that exercise stimulus is challenging your work capacity, for example. Then what happens to your health? Well, there's just a lot that's not known about that. And in the scientific space. So that's the kind of things that we're trying to do right now.

Ackerman:
Yeah, and I don't take it as a cop out. I was kind of a question I threw at you. And it's a hard answer. But I think everybody that's listening to this, like you just said, needs to figure out what is their sphere of influence, who can they, you know, impact. And one thing Coach Glassman brought up at the summit is they do a free class twice a week. I forget the exact term we used it, but it was basically, you know, overweight and out of shape. People get to come in for free, whatever criteria you might want to set.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
The Underserved. He calls it the underserved,.

Ackerman:
Underserved and whatever criteria that means for your box. You know, every box I've got three affiliates. I know from 2 to 4 p.m., nothing's happening at your box. So like you said, open it up for free. I would. It's hard. I want to go up to those people and tell them I can. I have the magic pill that they want. It's going to save them money. You know, it's going to give them more time. It's going to make them healthier. But yeah, you have to get them into the box and get them around that community.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Yeah. Hey, on your trip to Colorado down I-70, you stop in Columbia, Missouri, at all?

Ackerman:
Well, we didn't stop there. Honest, I don't remember. We drove through Missouri.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I did. I didn't. I worked for two years at the University of Missouri. It's a great town.

Ackerman:
Well, well, we did stop at Kentucky Fried Chicken and it so. And they think that's it's kind of what's makes me sad as I see these people eating. And I'm like, hey, it sounds even as if you can't eat here ever. Let's just be a little smarter. You know, let's let's put away that soda. You want some fried chicken once in a while. Haven't had fried chicken before, but you had some fried chicken. Yeah. It gave me diarrhea. But it was worth it. OK, so speaking of that, the other thing you and I kind of talked about is pretty hip.

Ackerman:
You know, the big buzz going around the Crossfit, community, the fitness world, is this documentary called Game Changers. And I'm anxious to hear your opinion on it. I know your degree. You know, exercise physiology includes metabolism and includes all that. So I'd like to hear your opinion on it. You know, everyone is trying to go plant based. Truth be told, I gave up meat for a short period of time just to test it out. Yeah, well, what's your opinion on that? What did you watch the documentary?

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I did, yeah. After after the shout out Katie who on seminar staff who messages me.

Ackerman:
I'm always interested in where do people get their information. And right now the current thing is for people to get their information from. Of course, the Internet like social media. Instagram. Facebook, YouTube. She is also a best hour coach.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
Right. Right. Yeah. So she messaged me asking me my opinion on it and had not watched it yet that time. But she was maybe the second or third person to ask me. I know people ask me about this thing. I need to sit down and watch this. So over that. The next the fall weekend that said that watched. And now it's been a couple of weeks.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
I can't remember it. A lot of the specifics, but my take was that meant it's just a really interesting time where people think about things like a to middle level or a high like forty thousand foot levels like. Weird.But when it comes to nutrition, I think the average. Somewhat intelligent, otherwise educated person is mostly getting their nutrition information from Netflix. Because this is just the latest one in a sort of a series of these high profiles, somewhat to extremely controversial nutrition oriented documentaries that have come out in the last few years, like the one the couple of years ago that I also got a lot of questions about from friends, colleagues, students and so forth. What's called what the health. And it was just this was like same shit, different day, to be honest.

Dr. Nathan Jenkins:
And the bottom line for me is that, you know what? The Netflix producers do not make their money. Based on the accuracy of the information that's presented, they make their money based on the number of clicks on and how many views they get. So that right there for me, regardless of the content of the message, it it's going to be hard for me to get past. That's it. That's my filter, right? Like this would be hard for me to get past that and take it. So. So there's that from the from the beginning to get a little bit the specifics of it. I had a hard time with the way they quantified the effectiveness of the the the vegan diet in that documentary. You've seen it, but they're tested like that. The.

The guy's name, but the.

Narrator The post of the documentary went on to his vegan diet, and that part for me that I almost turn the thing off was his test of how effective it was for its fitness was about a challenge.

So how lickity last on on swing barrows and before where there's no way to measure, right? There's no. Yeah. So like we can just ask the Crossfit, community who's listening.

This is the is how long you can last on a friggin Bauer. Is that a good measure of your fitness? Right. And so he I think he went from doing it for like two minutes to an hour or something like that. Because because as big a diet was magical there, maybe there may be immense benefits to the vegan diet, but that would not be the way that I would measure it. How about that?

I like that. So. So the box owner is listening and they have their members coming up to them, have some game changers. I'm thinking about doing that. How would you recommend that they respond?

Yeah. I would say. Just ounce as a box owner to a client to a to a number. I would say, hey, look, that's it. That's cool. That's one source of information. We just need to understand there's a lot of different.

Opinions and perspectives are.

Up there, and it's it's your duty, it's my duty. It's our collective duty to educate ourselves on a variety of perspectives on this. And as a box owner, if I don't own a box, maybe one day I'm retiring or something. Well, it's kind of like a bucket list thing for me. At some point I want to own a box. And if I were box owner, I would say, hey, look, let let's let's figure this out together. Right. Like, tell me what you know. You'll watch it. I'll watch it. Will take notes, compare notes and then always have like the skeptic. The scientific skepticism. That's one thing we do well at the universities. Never take anything at face value with investigate this third early. Let's dig in and kind of figure this out because there's probably and there were some elements of. Veracity of truth to take from that documentary. And there's a lot of elements that we're just not as good. And so the whole process is to come up with something. It's a set of ideas, the theories, whatever that. The point is to a best per practice. One source of information is never going to compress all of the things that we say as best practice, especially when it comes to nutrition. It's just a complicated one.

I think a lot of that documentary was a little bit biased based on who involved in what their financial implications are for them. So I think like anything going to that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Look into that. Don't get all of your. Well, but isn't that the whole problem with nutrition? I mean. When I grew up, I think we're about the same age or as a fat free craze. And where was that coming from? Was coming from the television, from magazines to. To the extent that I've educated myself with my parents still believe in all of that in the food industry.

And this is what this is one of the things that Coach Glassman is educating the entire community on and doing a great job with it. Into the corrupt influence of the food industry in the nutrition sciences and health sciences and gentlemen, in particular, nutrition. That's something that I think box owners should and you guys talked about this on this podcast before us, man, the Crossfit, icon these days is an amazing resource to become educated and conversant on on that. And yeah, we saw it like in my childhood. I think I'm a little younger than you, but in my in my childhood. Definitely remember like the fat free craze. And yet we had like fat free snacks in the house and stuff. And it's. You know, it is a product of our environment. Products that does just the times that I was. And hopefully we've learned from that kind of starting to move on.

How long do you anticipate it taking before the country recognizes? Meats, vegetables, nuts and seeds is the way to go.

Man. Is kind of like the does the last question is like, what do you think it will ever get there then? Or is there is there too much? Essam Azman I don't think so. Well, is it because the health industry won't allow it? Yeah. It's just a big machine. The food industry and the government. And it's like a conspiracy theorist.

But no, I mean, that's. You know, hearing you talk about a hearing coach class one time, got a hearing, Dr. Zelie talk about it here. You realize none of this is real.

So like the. As far as like the mainstream thinking on. I'm going to I'm speaking in really broad brush strokes here about exercise and should be thinking I'm not terribly optimistic that it's going to change to what has been born out of industry as a as a different and and arguably more effective model, which is Crossfit,, you know, when you again. It's for me, it's like I think of it as two laboratories. One is the contrived, controlled experimental space that we have at the university and the real world, which is where industry test tests ideas and they either fail or they don't. Or if they SMI fail, the semi's succeed. You take that feedback and it's an iterative process where you buy, you buy, you improve it as you go and you develop best practices based on market feedback. Right. Well, that's just a different model. And you end up at a different conclusion, a different set of best practices than you do if you do it the other way, which is the academic way to coach Bosman talks about as like consensus science and in post modern science. It's where it's like let's just come up with stuff that we can all agree on is the best way to do stuff, and there's no there's no there's no like test market.

It doesn't necessarily know if it works, it doesn't work. It just the people who think they know stuff about it. They agree on it. So that is I'm describing it in broad terms, but that is how we came up with the set of ideas that we have about, again, best practices for nutrition and exercise from the academic space.

And oh, by the way, that happens to be influenced a lot by commercial interests in an industry. That's a big problem. I mean, personally, I mean, I'm kind of removed from a lot of that. Like, I don't have industry funding. I don't. I have one NIH grant. But it's kind of a totally different topic. Try to keep myself in my in my again that that small sphere of influence removed from that stuff. But just as an observer, as a participant in it and an observer of like the that that big machine that is. Academia and the mainstream public health messages about exercise and nutrition. Oh, man, that's your question. Is it going to change mainstream? I don't know. Like so it's a it's a it's a lifelong. It's gonna be within our lifetime. It will be really interesting to see how things go. We're talking not one year, not even five years, a decade on my check-ins check in and see how things are going compare and then look back like it every 10 years or so with how much progress has been made because it's just such a big problem, just takes a long time to make incremental progress on this stuff. So.

Well, like you said, to kick this off. Here's what we can do. Fox owners need to control their sphere and we need to get out there. We may never make that change for the entire country, but we can make it for our box. We can make it for our community. And slowly, grassroots men say it might not have been. This is the same way Coach Glassman started it way back when in Santa Cruz. I don't think his goal was to be a disruptor in the health industry, which he is now, but has started with the intention of helping people. And that's what he's doing.

Right. Yeah, for me, I never thought I would say now.

I actually in my lab meetings with my students. I use that term disruption quite a lot. It's like when we when we publish our results on some of our studies that we're doing. I hope. I hope. I really do hope it disrupts our field.

And, you know, it's gonna take a while for us to get some of that stuff published because it's going to be so different from what my peers are used to thinking about and how they're used to thinking about exercise, like I presented at the summit on quantifying the stimulus in terms of power output and work accomplished, you know, physics based characterisation. That's gonna blow. That's good. It's so simple, right? So fundamental. But that's just not how the mainstream science community looks at exercises like percent of V02 Max. Heart rate, heart rate. Reserve, you know, percent of your heart. Remax. It's just anyway. So. Yeah, I think I'm just really excited about some of the stuff that we're having the opportunity to do right now and the chance to talk about it with people like yourself and your colleagues and your peers in the Crossfit, training group.

Yeah. And, you know, I can see it happening because since moving here, I was dropping in at a global gym just to it was right down the road. I want to get my workouts in and you see it there, squat racks. There's functional fitness areas. I mean, we have none of that was around before CrossFit gyms long before they weren't Keto bells, wall balls pull up bars. So it's cool. And I think that's really the beginning of it. It's going to happen. It might not be in our lifetimes, but it's going to happen.

So, yeah, for sure. Last question to you. It's Thursday night as we're recording and it's going to go up Monday. OK. What's the last word out of the twenty twenty open going to be? Oh, shoot man. Well I think I don't look at your photo because I don't know Vitelli ever by my by my watch.

I've got 5:52 on Thursday night and I've got I'm not going to pull up the phone. I've got a push notification from my Crossfit, Games app. This probably tell me what the workout is.

Ok, well, let's see. I do this live. I'm going to look up what it is. OK. You you give me your best guess. Oh, you're a doctor. You're a doctor. You should be able to do that, I think.

All right. I can tell you the movements. I think they're going to be in at first. I think we've got to see rolling and roll balls. And I also think we're gonna see some variation of muscle ups. And my hunch is that it'll be ring muscle ups only because we had our also lives in the 19th open earlier in twenty nineteen, so. All right. Rolling also Apple and Rosseau loves. Yes. And I think a relatively shorter time domain because we've had several like 20 minute type deals. So I'm going to say.

Well, I'll just tell you what I've been thinking is gonna be all week.

I think you that's a 10 minute Amer. up of one ring muscle up.

10 wall the halls and 10 calories on the rower, where and in every round you increase the number of ring muscle ups. So like the line and then two and three and so forth.

Something that something along those lines is what I've been thinking of. Well, Doc and I close it all either.

I just pulled it out. It came up. What a guess. You are extremely close. Yeah. Let me tell you what it is. OK. And then the listeners, you've probably done it at this point because it earned so much credibility. Crossfit,. You did. You did it now. OK. So the workout, twenty point five floor time partitioned anyway. Shortie muscle ups 80 calorie ro. One hundred and twenty ball shots. You can petition anywhere you want. Yes. That is very similar, actually. All right. I got like you were saying, man, everyone needs to not be heroes and just short, small, quick set. OK, so let's. While I've got you on the phone day. I know. And I do want to go see it because I believe the announcement was that Reebok Crossfit, one. I'm sure you get all those things there. What's the what? Denise is there. So earn some street cred right here. Doc, give me. Yeah. How would you recommend people break this up? All right. I need. And then I will I will poke holes in your theory. This would be like your man, dude, like ending your dissertation right now. I had my one, but I'm not a. I'm not a master train coach. Coach. Yeah. That's basically like you saying to me, you have your level. One is like basically a kindergartner coming up to you and saying, I'm in kindergarten and you're like, I'm a fucking doctor. Like, that's where we're at right now. All right. All right. So what's your strategy here, doc? And I'll make you defend when my now my app isn't loading it. Can't see it. So tell me again, is 40 muscle, 80 was 80 calories the counter and 20 wall blocks.

Forty eight. odorants winning.

Cash.

I don't I don't see myself. I'm just thinking of myself and I'm a fairly average athlete. I can do it with muscle ups.

It only says muscle ups for the record. So I don't know just yet. Actually, there's a picture over here that looks like China. Cho is on rims, so I assume nine rings and based on my.

My knowledge of Crossfit, is that unless specified muscle, it means muscle up to us. I would agree. Yeah, I'd say it's a good assumption we're gonna win the rings. OK, so that was my. That was me trying to run a more street cred. Nice job. I don't think I'm not doing any more than a setup for muscle ups at one time. No, not necessary in stringing those together. Unless a lot of what? What's our time cat? We have Tomcat. No, it doesn't. There's no time. Jesus. Thank you, chef. We're like super raw right now.

Well, let's just say if your goal was to finish this as fast as you can.

And then I'm not doing any more than 10, Wolf, I'm on the tenth of all there isn't once there is a 20 minute time gap. 20 minute time gap. Woman I'm a I'm a I'm a sit down and ponder things and think about it right on the whiteboard.

And many times, but off the cuff for no more than for muscle ups at one time.

Once you've accumulated for muscle ups, then move to the.

To the wall balls, I guess, now. Which A?

To the row or so that the pulling has a chance to recover a little bit before you could it back on the ring.

All right. Hey, Megan. And then.

To the wall balls. I don't. I'm not doing any more than 10. A set of 10 wall balls at once with that many.

Well, based on what you're saying, I think you would basically break this up in 10 cents for a while. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's what most people line of doing. Yes. Yes. Is that the challenge? OK. I'm going to ask you. I don't know.

I don't know if I think about it or but that like raw. I haven't thought about that at all for a twelve, ten rounds. And don't be a hero. Don't go out too hot for me. It's difficult. Like when I'm fresh, I can string together for a ring muscle ups, but the fatter can do 10 rounds of that. No. So I don't even know what it's gonna get. Ugly, man.

I think I think where people will get lost is the 80 calories in one hundred and twenty wellbores shots relative to the muscle ups is very low. Right. So like you're saying, it's going to be easy to chip away at the 80 and then 120 and just leave yourself staring at rings.

Exactly. And I do that for me.

I know that's going to be the sticking point as coaches are talked about. Like there's a sticking point in every workup. The vast majority of us, average people, it's going to be those ring muscle ups. Yes. I've never done. I don't think I can think of a workout where I've done 40 at one time, like in one workout.

And I know, what, 40? I don't want you to think that that comment was lost on me in that you've listened to the episode with Hinshaw. By the way, I listened all I've listened to every episode. Well, thank you. You weren't my favorite. Since you're my favorite Crossfit, themed podcast, which is why it's by my highest credential to be on honored twice. Yes. Yes. Well, and I know I'd like to say I believe you are the street cred. Dr. Nathan Jenkins, without really seeing it. You know, really, I think you did a good job of coming up with the game plan, understanding the workout. So he's not just a brain. He's got the muscle ups to back it up. And I think you're going to do great on this workout then maybe as it is it to a twelve in two hours or something like that comes out to be to eight to 12 for something along the exact way to 8 to 12. Now you're thinking that's that's it. You just earn your stripes that way.

It's going to be constant movement. Yeah. OK. I like that. That's actually right. Women go to that taking off. But then I might change my mind about time to do it tomorrow night.

All right. We'll be excited to see how you do. It's been a pleasure having you back on for a second time, and I'm sure we'll have you on multiple times. Fern and I plan on having all of the Crossfit, health people on and having a regular schedule with you guys. So we're looking forward to that because you guys are doing some great things in the world and we are appreciative of that. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Jason, it's been a lot of fun. I dont get a good night's sleep. All right, dream, dream of your strategy and let us know it goes about muscle. Take Evan.

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