120. Jack Ryan & Eric Heup | Fairwinds CrossFit

120. Jack Ryan & Eric Heup | Fairwinds CrossFit

On today episode Fern sits down with longtime friends Jack Ryan and his business partner Eric Heup, they own Fair Winds CrossFit.  They come from two entirely different backgrounds, with opposite skill sets. They went from the coach-athlete relationship to partners in their affiliate. It’s rare to see a business partner in a box nowadays who aren’t married or related in some ways. As that’s a difficult relationship with equal business partners, they’ve found a way to make it work.  They also discuss better ways to communicate with the members in an affiliate that help foster the community and create buy-in. It all starts with their gym values: Be curious, Be consistent, Be Courageous. They run so much a podcast for their gym and fitness field trip which are pretty cool. It’s long and informative episode make sure to take notes. 

Time Stamps:

(6:45) Jack’s Background
(18:43) Eric’s Background
(27:16) Their partnership
(36:29) Disagreements
(40:45) Podcast
(47:48) The entertain or fun component is forgotten
(1:05:02) Gratitude 

Social media:

@jpryan77
@theericho
@fairwinds_crossfit
http://www.fairwindscrossfit.com/

Podcast: Grounds After Rounds

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Text messages, messages via a Google drive.

Fern :
Just talking how much we hate Google Drive. All right, everybody, welcome back to the best out over there day. It’s fern here. I am here with a good friend of mine. And long time Jack Ryan and his business partner Eric Heup. They own Fairwinds Crossfit,. And we’re gonna talk about a lot of different things. Most of this is going to be relevant to the affiliate owner slash new coach. So take some notes on this one. Jack and I have known each other I was to figure this out yesterday, like 10 years almost?

Jack Ryan :
Yes, two thousand. The fall of two thousand eight. I came in in the summer of two thousand eight. Like found you tucked away in some warehouse in Virginia Beach and Expeditionary Square. Unit 2, too. Grumpy, angry, sweaty.

Fern :
Yeah. So anybody who’s trying to envision what this looks like, this is the life of any supply officer in the Navy, just sitting in a warehouse, being pissed off at the world. But but no, Jack was my operations officer when I was at Moby. And at 12, we deployed together to Iraq and I introduced Jack to Crossfit,. And typical story like, hey, what are you doing? Let’s try this out. And then he’s gone on to do a bunch of different things. Start as an affiliate. He’s worked with other affiliates, started be affiliate at the Naval Academy. He is also a Naval Academy grad, 2nd Naval Academy grad with how on the podcast. So my first question for you, Eric, is how is it working with somebody who is the subject of so many Tom Clancy books?

Eric Heup :
It’s funny that doesn’t come up as much as there as often as you think. Of course, I tell peoples like, you know, my business partner, Jack Ryan. It’s like the Jack Ryan.

Fern :
Yeah, the Jack Ryan. It’s so I have to ask you this, Jack, because I don’t think I’ve ever asked you this. Like, obviously, anybody who’s like into what’s now on Amazon as as a serious. But weren’t did you always go by Jack? Where did that come about when you got to the Naval Academy? And you’re just like, this is cool.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. No, it is a good question. Now, I was born about eight years before the first book came out. So I was a I’m a junior. And so my dad went by Pat. I had an Uncle John on one side of family. My mom always wanted a jack, but she and my dad wanted to junior. So I was Jack right from the get go when I got to the naval or actually even in the process of applying to the Naval Academy. Clearly, the Tom Clancy series and the name was prevalent. But there is an actual there’s a guy from Slate called an interview I was teaching at school. And, you know, he tried. He really wanted there to be something. And as a professor, I I kept trying to explain to him, look, man, fiction is great, but reality is often a lot more interesting. And those characters served a purpose for Tom Clancy as a writer. That’s it. The name doesn’t mean shit if you go into any sort of Ireland phone directly. There’s about a thousand Ryans and most of them are named John Patrick or some variation of John and Patrick. And so it’s not a very it’s an extremely common name.

Fern :
What when I was I was gonna look it up this morning, I just got lazy. But I was trying to figure out when did the like the Patriot Games and all that the movies come out like, do you ever get it? You ever get confused for Harrison Ford?

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. The book was eighty five. I think the movies came out late. Eighties.

Eric Heup :
They made books out of them?

Jack Ryan :
Books first. Thanks, Eric. And. And, you know, I think the transition. I love Alec Baldwin’s awesome. I think Harrison Ford kind of ran the show. Anything after that was sort of a shade of of those two characters. I think this reboot of the series on Amazon’s not too bad.

Fern :
But I thought it was I thought the first season was really good. But yeah, I was wondering, I was kind of think it was like I’m pretty sure these movies came out because you graduated in nineteen eighty nine ninety nine, OK. Yes I was one year I got there one year after you left. Yeah. So for so Jack was obviously the Yoda officer. That’s where we met. And then he just retired. June.

Jack Ryan :
June. Yeah. June after 20 years.

Fern :
20 years. Finished his career at the Naval Academy where he went to a permanent military professor job there to write out of time, which is a pretty sweet gig. He was teaching. English was teaching.

Jack Ryan :
I like to say I was always.

Eric Heup :
Still called truckers English for the idiots?

Jack Ryan :
We do we have we I taught that for two semesters is pretty great. And it’s funny they actually transition that. We now call on the Harvards because there’s only if we like to say that Naval Academy is comparable to an Ivy League. There’s only one other Ivy League institution that makes all of their students take three semesters of English regardless of their major. And that’s Harvard. And so our our trucker English, you are remedial English students are on par with students from Harvard.

Fern :
Is remedial folks.

Jack Ryan :
It is often the most they’re often the most enjoyable students, though.

Fern :
Yeah. So about that class was always super fun for me. And then Smoove 5, which is math for morons, which is basic, like remedial calculus where it’s just it’s literally nothing but football, baseball, lacrosse in basketball, players sleeping through third class.

Jack Ryan :
And that was basically what you telling us. Would you tell us, Jason, is that you were never. There’s there’s two categories of, you know, performers in the sense of you’re either a smart performer or a strong performer. And it’s a good thing that you were pretty strong.

Fern :
I was strong. Just not academically. And I people out there. I’ve have I’ve had very few people make the assumption that I’m intelligent. Maybe because I went to the Naval Academy and I’m like, listen, I graduate with a two point one one. It was buried. I barely graduated. And at one point I was one thousand and twelve out of one thousand and eighteen as far as my academic ranking. So I was almost the anchor man stole a little bit grumpy about that.

Jack Ryan :
But, you know, you got to get eating. Got enough troubles.

Fern :
I know, that I did not. I did. I got I think I got demerits like once, like. That I was good, I was getting away with things that I could do all day long. Very well versed there. But anyway, so let’s talk a little bit about both of your. Introductions and kind of journey through Crossfit, like Jack gave a little bit of a brief introduction of yours. But let’s go through yours and then Eric, we’ll talk about yours as well. And then how that kind of led you both to opening your affiliate that you currently have.

Jack Ryan :
So as you as you mentioned, that deployment to Iraq in 0 9, after you subjected me to fight gone bad, I was definitely hooked and transitioned from that command to a job in Hawaii where there was a Crossfit, following at the command level diving salvage unit one. But they kind of were just all over the place. And so I sort of chalk that up to my first quote unquote affiliate. We weren’t affiliated, but I had a I had a budget. I was able to buy equipment. We set up classes. We had a couple of folks who had their level ones or at least had some familiar already with coaching. And Brian Powers, who’s at LA, who now? I think they’re a conglomerate of some sort. But he was running sort of a train, the trainer type, of course, that we were able to send a handful of our guys at the individual unit level through, which worked out really well for me because I got to keep going through it. So basically, it was sort of like a level one, but not a level one. And I got to see that if he chunk it into running an affiliate as has different buckets or categories of skill sets. This was the you have all the money in the world. You don’t have a lot of space. And you kind of got like a transient type of population. What kind of structure should you setup? And it’s sort of this idea of really learning how to farm out the skill set to as many people as possible so they can kind of be autonomous.

Fern :
What , some of the big. So now that I’m thinking about that as far as like skillsets, what was if you were to look back on that now, what would you say were like the one or two biggest things that you took away from that that you currently use in your affiliate? Like when I learned that I have to be really official in my space or whatever it might be.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah, I would say it is. Just because you have. All the money in the world are you have funds to buy kind of whatever you want. There is a universal reality in barbells, bumper plates, dumbbells and a rig and that’s it. And the rig, really a pull up bar is is all you need. And so because you want to be thinking, how can I get the most flexibility in this equipment? And when I mean, flex it use of flexibility for guys and athletes who don’t have a whole lot of time. And they just want to come in and move well safely so that they can be fit and and do OK. That sort of non competitor. Nobody in that group, though, there were three guys that eventually did end up going to the games on teams, but from different affiliates.

Fern :
Yeah.

Jack Ryan :
How did that? How can I create a system that is supported with its equipment that I’m not going to be running on a day to day basis? So sort of like really big picture owner then sort of in the weeds coach manager just sort of like what can I approved that won’t get anybody in trouble and will last because you’re only going to get to buy stuff about once a year.

Fern :
Yeah. And I think this kind of goes back to the where most people started back in the day, which is like simple is better.

Jack Ryan :
Yes. always always always

Fern :
He’s always one of the things that happens is this is typically what I see in some of the newer gyms that I go to that have a lot of funds, which is they have all this stuff. And then the programming eventually kind of. Turns into what Freddy Camacho, who was on the show recently, would describe as the any asshole workout, which means any asshole can just throw all that stuff on a paper, put it in some sort of rep scheme and make a workout. And it’s not difficult to make something hard like it would be easy to make something hard. That doesn’t mean it’s affected.

Jack Ryan :
So from here, if we if we kind of think like I then came to the academy, I transitioned to that permanent military present professor role and similar situation, there were there were people doing Crossfit,. They had a racquetball court. We actually had some support from folks in the PE department. And. But again, it was sort of a hodgepodge of a lot of body weight stuff. A lot of circuit stuff. And now the challenge would be. All right. You’ve got a lot of really fit athletic people. You don’t have a whole lot of money. You kind of got a very constrained time. But they don’t move well. And so now it was less about being sort of an owner and sort of people who just did not know how to coach, did not know how to move. Didn’t know how to structure a class. And so creating sort of I would say with the academy, it was a little bit of equipment stuff. So took that skill set from the month from the previous time. Got the basic starter set for them to be able to to run a class of anywhere between. And this is you guys talked about it. I was thinking eights and twelves. So this idea of the racquetball space could fit feasibly inside of it. Eight people safely swelled to a class of twelve. Now you get a bump out a little bit. Maybe you’re limited with what you can actually do, but there’s at least room to make it work. Anything more than that. Then it just becomes a goat rope and it’s different. So we basically would say classes. We had eight spots. The coach could let it swell to twelve. At that point, the doors were closed. Sorry you had to kick people away. And then coaching like I coached hoof probably a thousand classes over the course of that first five years of running.

Fern :
Thats A lot.

Jack Ryan :
I mean, I was coaching three classes a day, five days a week, and then usually seeing them on Saturdays. And so it was. And it was all year. Summers off.

Fern :
Ok. Let me ask you this, because this happens to you. Right. So this is a perfect segue way, which is let’s say you were in Hawaii. You’re training. You come to the Naval Academy. And there’s two pieces there. The first one is just like going to any military. I’ve got to get buy-in from the head. Chad, as far as like this is OK. We’re not going to kill people. You know, not every Rob does not contagious, you know. But where would you where would you place yourself in your coaching, development or career? Start that. And then most people are like, well, how do I start coaching you? Like, I’m not ready.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. I think maybe that the unfair advantage is that I had a little bit of rank. So I had a little bit of like buying right from the get go simply because what I wore on my collar versus what they wore on their collar. But at the same token with that, there was a sort of a duality of I could kind of get away with whatever I wanted, whatever I said they would believe. But at the same token, I had a responsibility to actually know what the hell I was talking about and to admit and say like, hey, we’re going to mess with this stuff together. Right. Like, I don’t know, maybe we think we started following Outlaw at first because I was like, I don’t really know about programming and I can figure it out, but whatever and quickly realized way too much. So then we followed dot com for a year, much better, but it got a little bit boring. And so as you said, boring is not always bad. It’s generally bad. It’s effective, but it was tough to keep them engaged. And so we settled on kind of like a mish mash of different things out there as we talked about earlier. You continue, Pat. Barbara had one for a while there. That was awesome. Sherwood stuff with Lynch is awesome. Simple, but yet still engaging. There is no perfect programming. There is simply perfect execution. And so we we settled on something that they saw gains and the fun battle with them became for me as a coach at that phase where I was was coming to realize that it does not matter what they actually did as long as we executed it well and they consistently did it.

Fern :
I think that is one of the most important lessons a coach, a gym owner could learn is that we far too often get way too attached to our programming. And the reality is exactly what you just said. There is extremely strong argument for the fact that programming doesn’t matter at all. Not one bit.

Jack Ryan :
Couplets and triplets,.

Fern :
Couplets and triplets and an. And history would verify that and validate that because most of us didn’t know what we’re doing, we started programming. And people still got fit. Like most of us move like trash. When we first started and we still got fit and then we started to make it sexy and more volume in the spreadsheet really matters. And it doesn’t matter. I think that Barbara said it, which was, hey, you know what? A good coach can do a lot with shitty programming. A bad coach can’t do anything with the best programming in the world. That does not matter what. What matters is your ability to walk in the door and effectively change movement in a very finite amount of time and make people have a good time other doing it.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. And so I think with this that timeframe of bouncing between and I was coaching at a couple of affiliates in the area, in the Annapolis area as well. It gave me the opportunity to see a broad spectrum of movers from really athletic 18 to 24 year olds who actually just don’t move that well. A lot of mobility issues to adults and kids in the Annapolis area who maybe moved a little bit better, had, you know, lives in different ailments that I got at that point, went to a couple, you know, especially courses, got my level two kind of did those sorts of more formulaic developments, just time under tension on the floor, learning what style worked for me, seeing how a lot of what I learned in the military does apply. A lot of what I learned in the military does not apply. People do not like to be yelled at. Then again, some people you like to be yelled at. So it’s sort of this there is no one size fits all, which, you know, makes my brain explode. What do you mean you’re not going to do what I tell you to do? Because I told you to do it.

Jack Ryan :
And systems. I learned the importance of. Both appreciating the systems, but then also appreciating when certain individuals shit all over the system and let it go away as I can. Eric on the shoulder. So you find I think that’s the move of when we open our boxes. We realized we complemented each other very well, had to have a very large Venn diagram center. But also we don’t force each other to go into that Venn diagram circle. That balance is what keeps us from me running this place like a freakin boot camp and nothing ever running on time because.

Eric Heup :
This place really like the middle of tornado all the time.

Jack Ryan :
Right. But at the same token, everything running on time the way it’s supposed to. I don’t care about people. Right. Like that’s the far end of my spectrum vs. we’ll sit and talk with one person all day because that’s the most important thing in the world. But forget like we got to pay bills, too. Yeah. And I’m being I’m being facetious.

Fern :
Like that’s not but that’s a real scenario and it’s both. And which is a perfect segue. Way to talk about your. But that’s that’s a lot why Jason and I work together like we’re not the same in a lot of ways. Like there’s certain things he’s good at, he’s good at and there are certain things that I’m good at. And we’ve we’ve talked about that. We’ve said, hey, this is your part, this is my part. And we’ll talk about what overlaps there. But for the most part, like I’m going to let you do your thing. And I think it takes probably a little bit of a bit of maturity to kind of let some of those things go when you’re like, hey, listen, like you’re better at that than I am. And that’s OK. Like, I’m totally fine with that. So, Eric, you had a little bit of a different start, like you started to kind of expand and then kind of found your way to Crossfit,.

Eric Heup :
It’s like that was a very short version. We had more time. I I met a lot of different paths to get to where I am today. It just happened. I was that path started. I was working at the V.A. and I actually started in the canteen when a little convenience store in the bay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they opened up a coffee shop in there and I was hired to run the coffee shop. So that’s where I started my senior. And so it was a it was not an official Starbucks. It was a we probably brew Starbucks. So they sell stuff with a Starbucks logo on it, but we can’t take your gift cards so. But it was. Yeah it was. I was the morning guys when everyone came in for their their morning coffee around, which is the line running out the door. And then Secretary Secretary Shinseki at the time with his his venti skim moga with no whip. And I remember that one in particular that was his that was his beverage of choice. But yeah, I kind of ran that show and it was I just love interacting with people. I if I would done all the jobs I’d had in some form or another, I’m interacting with people all the time, all day, every day.

Eric Heup :
It’s the few jobs that I had where I was sitting in front of the computer by myself, which is why I probably drove myself crazy the most. But it was working at Starbucks line where the the lady who ran the the fitness center came up to me. She’s like, you seem really great with people. You should ever thought about being a spin instructor and absolutely not. No, I never thought about being a spin instructor, let alone a fitness structure of any kind. And she talked me into it. I went got a spinning sort of case and loved it and then left the Starbucks, started working in that fitness center. And so it was one day these guys were coming in and I’d mentioned that they were two very fit guys with very form fitting clothing. So they were glued to say the least. But they came in one day and they stacked up a bunch of those like step aerobics boxes. Oh, yeah, stacked out. And we’re trying to do like their max box jump on those things. And it’s always one of those like Crossfit, fail videos you see waiting to happen. Like they’re going to land too far forward or too far back and wipe out the ceilings or. No, I mean the ceilings are maybe seven, eight feet tall.

Eric Heup :
No, much taller, not much taller than a like regular office space. I asked them what they’re doing. They were talking about Crossfit,. This close friend of mine told me about the thing. Crossfit,. I went .com, I saw the stuff. I thought, it looks awesome, but I’m not the person that watches a YouTube video and like, I’m going to try that thing that looks scary and heavy. And I never lifted weights like I played sports in high school. I never really lifted weights much. But I’ve always been a decent sized guy, a large American, if you will, and just never when your weights. And so it wasn’t something that I wanted to try on my own because I knew for a fact that was going to hurt myself after like a year or so. I finally got myself into a box our box where Jack where I met Jack, I was where you’re one of my first coaches and a camera was my first like the first workout after the introductory was the box one where it was literally like, come and jump as high as you can on a box or if it was double under workout wear for an hour, I just sat there and whipped my ass.

Jack Ryan :
I remember Burpees and Deadlifts because I remember you almost throwing. Throwing up over the overhang, remember how the at the there was there wasn’t a flatout drive up. It was sort of an elevated overhang. And we’re doing Buprees and deadlifts and I remained. So it might have been like a week or two weeks. But I feel that’s the first distinct memory I have of him and like holding on to the garage door railing and kind of like hanging out as if he was going through. I’m like, oh, god, I’m Illouz, this guy. He’s good. Unbolt had a head trauma. I’m done. I’m gonna get fired. I’m not gonna get my retirement like you recovered.

Eric Heup :
Was funny. I don’t remember that at all. Yeah, that’s it. That’s that was the workout I wrote.

Fern :
That’s what people do with traumatic experiences, Eric. They block him out,.

Eric Heup :
Right? It was.

Fern :
So I want to. I want to. Kind of asked you guys both and you guys can both give your own answers. But like so obviously you’re very different have very different skill sets. So obviously, Jack your systems person, Eric your people, Jack, your small Eric, your big military civilian. Like how? Like at what point do you do all of those differences somehow turn into a partnership where you guys are now running this business together?

Jack Ryan :
Good point. So you why don’t you go for it?

Eric Heup :
So we were always. I don’t think I think I always knew Jack was a bit of a systems guy and just the relationship we had built because he was a Crossfit, to be where we met. I forget how long you were there. I forget how long I was working out there and you were there. I think I’d started I’d been there for about six months and then started coaching. Yeah. And then you were there? Not much longer. Yeah. And so we always maintain this friendship and I don’t think. I think it was just the relationship we had. I think he started working in the garage. I was still working all day and I think was just conversations back and forth about how the gym was going, how coaching is going and just how we kind of always bounce stuff off each other. And I think it was always kind of seen how when when he ran a class from from 0 minute from the times class starts to the way it ends and seeing how he had every second accounted for something that I knew just that was how I got it. I’ll look into Jack’s systems. And I think Jack just seeing like, hey, you are. Good with people. I think it was just always those conversations back and forth when we started. I think we started running a kids program out of your garage. You just kind of sing. And then it was just kind of seeing how that little bit from ten to twelve kids, seeing how I worked in that space and how he worked in that space. I think we saw it like this could be something really cool, even if only on a small level.

Jack Ryan :
So for me, I as I was thinking about moving into starting my own thing started in the garage because, you know, I’m always a big fan, even in teaching literature. You know, I keep going back further and further and further to find like, well, you know, that story seems like it has been told before. So you go back to the Rahsaan. So that story seems to be told before you go back to the Bible. That seems to be you know, you go back to Homer, like we keep telling the same story over and over again, says like, all right, starting an affiliate. What should I do? Well, Glassman wrote an article and he said, start in your garage, get 10 people, move out, get more people, go bigger. Go and don’t wait. You got to wait until three to four people complain. Don’t move. Wait until three to four people quit, then move. And so it’s sort of this idea of like, all right, I’m starting out of my garage and it’s gonna be slow growth and we’re gonna do this. And I was gonna go solo. And then I remembered for the last 20 years of my life. Twenty five years in my life, you know, through some high school, all the academy knows that I’ve never worked alone. Even in when you’re independent operator, you’re part of a team. Teams always work better, blah, blah. All that kid stuff. But the reality is, because you get balanced by somebody who can compliment your weaknesses or compliment your strengths and counteract your weaknesses. I distinctly remember thinking like I will. Eric’s name always would come up in my mind because I always knew that he was similar to me in a lot of ways of heat.

Jack Ryan :
I think he sells himself short of the art with which he runs a class. He’s accounting for every second as well. It’s just not written down. It’s instinct or it’s in there, but it’s accounted for. We did have my birthday in March before. Things were kind of formalized and I was moving on. I asked him if he would be willing to run a workout for about five or six of friends and stuff in town. It swelled to. We probably had one. Yeah, it was it was way more than I told him it would be. And I didn’t give them any heads up and we just showed up. And he and I.

Fern :
Sign of a true partner.

Jack Ryan :
And I just sort of I just sort of said, like, this is way I wanted to feel. We want to do a bunch of stuff, kind of chipper ish, blah, blah, blah. And it was awesome. It was on the fly. And in my head I’m thinking, oh, my God, if I’d done this to somebody, they wouldn’t be my friend anymore. And he did it with a smile and actually, like, thanked us afterwards, thanked me like, oh, thanks so much. And I’m like, oh, yeah, this is a guy that would put up with my crap and be willing to go in on this with me. And so then we actually had a real conversation and we sat down and we did exactly like he said. We talked about these are the things I think I do well. These are the things I think you do well. These are the things I think we can really knock out of the park and let’s do it.

Fern :
So what when you having that conversation, because this is something else that comes up pretty regularly is like my first question is, did you guys develop some sort of operational agreement and then who owns what responsibilities within the business? Because this is. Probably the one of the biggest mistakes. First and foremost, very few partnerships with any Crossfit, affiliates work from a multitude of reasons. Most of don’t make enough money, but then most of them fail because they fail to have conversations on the front end. Yeah. What did that look like when you guys sit down like we’re gonna do this? But there’s a couple of things that have to happen first.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. So I’ll I’ll take this one. So does I dissent. I seem to remember saying I said we need to do that. But I think if we we’re gonna shoot at a target that we don’t even know where it is and we’re gonna close our eyes, spin and shoot. It’s a waste of time. So I said, number one, we are 50 50. We are 50 50 financial. We are 50 50 workload. We are 50 50, everything. But that number is qualitative. And so we knew each other situations. I was still teaching at the academy full time. He had just had a baby or his daughter was on the way. He also had another job. So there was sort of this like, you know, all do most me. I’ll do most of the back end stuff. You got to cover most of it on the floor, gym stuff. That is not a quantitative our thing. But the rule is if you feel like at some point you’re not doing 50 or you feel like you’re doing more. You need to say something before you get angry. And let’s give it about six months. Eight months. Let’s see where we fall out, which as you’ve been on teams in the military.

Jack Ryan :
This is a very normal conversation that good teams have during what’s called the norming phase that you are forming up and norming into these relationships that like, look, this is what this S.O.P. Says with the standard operating procedure says, but I don’t work that way. You might. Let’s see where it falls out. So we got a template. But at the one years just over the one year mark, we actually wrote and they make fun of me. I wrote a sorm standard operating regulation manual and it’s by codes I have we have the one code, the 2 code 3 code, the 4 code. Everything’s broken out into departments or categories or roles within that are subsets of like, OK, this is where it falls and it’s a living document. But then we pass it out and we said, this is yours, this is mine, this is yours, this is mine. And now we have spaces for our coaches and our staff that is starting to come on board to fit. And who is responsible for them? Who has that task force like all that stuff. And they make fun. And we have a poll. We have poems.

Fern :
Hey fuck those things. So that that is actually one of the skill sets that I picked up in the military that I did not ever believe was going to be valuable, which is the just, you know, because in supply there is rules for everything. It’s just like if this then that and this is how this works and this is the process. But that’s not what I wanted to ask. That’s the important part. People should do that, but people don’t because it’s boring. Yeah, it is like this is pain. What? I want to do it. I’m like, yeah, but that’s why everything here is should show because you’ve failed to put in rules. You have to know when to break the rules. Right. They’re not set in stone.

Jack Ryan :
He’s really good at that. Like, really, really good.

Eric Heup :
I;m really good at breaking rules.

Jack Ryan :
But in a way that onlys is driven towards the user’s experience, the person’s experience, the customer coming in because I will default to well, that customer is 10 minutes late. They don’t get to do class blah blah. It’s like no man. Just be happy they’re here. Yeah.

Fern :
So it was coming from the emergency room where his daughter broke his leg. Calm down.

Jack Ryan :
Right. It’s I think. I mean, you said it one time. Eric said at one time in Sunny Raila’s it like the thing that people remember about him that I remember about him is he always greets you with a smile and leaves you with a smile, even if he got an hour’s sleep last night because Fiona didn’t sleep with her. It doesn’t matter. That’s not important. You’re the most important person thing in the world when he’s talking to you. And that is something that it’s a skill set that I have started to develop. Then I think.

Eric Heup :
He sells himself short because hes much

Fern :
Jack actually empathetic dude. But this is this one actually is for you, Eric. So you guys obviously have the conversation about having that time out or whatever you want to call it, be like this is not working. I’m feeling I’m feeling like I’m shouldering the brunt of the work. You know, how do you guys have rules on those conversations? And then what have you guys had? Like a significant disagreement thus far? And how was it resolved?

Eric Heup :
I am. It’s why I went when we had the conversation, when Jack wrote out the flow chart of all the systems,.

Jack Ryan :
The srom, the sreom,.

Eric Heup :
The storm. I only know Crossfit, acronyms, Jack, but I think that timing could have been better too, because I was starting to get to a point where I was starting to feel he’s. He was he’s coaching and he back end and stuff in. It’s hard for me to. Like you said, the whole like user experience and running the floor and blah, blah is there’s. It’s not quantitative. And so in my mind, I feel like just caring so much and I’m not doing enough. And I was I think I was having trouble feeling like that. It was actually an equal share. And I felt like he was doing so much and I was dragging ass. And that time he couldn’t have when he put that together came at a great time because now it’s like here’s this visualize and here’s this thing in front of me that I can look up and say, here’s actually what you do do and here’s what I do. And I can refer to that when I needed to make sure if I feel like I’m slipping, which.

Jack Ryan :
I’ll roll, I’ll roll like an avalanche. There’s a there’s a vacuum of skill or vacuum of task. I’ll just fill it because that’s what you do. Mission. Accomplishment. Right. Like I don’t care. Wheel after action report this later. But feelings be damned like I’m going to roll right over. Top it. And so that I remember him saying like, dude, I need we ride a bit to answer your question. We do a weekly meeting and I listen to your episode of meetings. We have a we have a timeline. We keep to forty five minutes like it’s a very deliberate thing because I totally agree. Afterwards I put out a bunch of stuff and afterwards Eric finishing. He goes, Hey, I need to talk to you. And so the rules are kind of I think with these conversations we don’t have any. It truly is if the other person needs to express it. I think we’ve come to a place where you respectful. You are very specific and you talk about how the actions are making you feel, not that the other person is always doing something. Yeah, we had a meeting with our wives before this whole thing kicked off. We went to coffee. The four of us sat down and we basically said, Are you guys OK to our wives? We said, Are you guys okay? That basically Eric and I are marrying each other with this job.

Fern :
No, no, that’s a that’s a real conversation. And acromion and I talked about that all the time because, you know, now that we’re doing this, we talk multiple times a day.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. And it’s and it’s I think, paid dividends because there has been there’s been times where I’ve pissed off my wife with. We said we were gonna. She and I talked about like what was gonna happen, where we’re going to expand, how things are gonna move. And then he and I talked and we were like, oh, we like that much better. And I didn’t come back and, you know, re brief her on what the new plan was. And it’s happened since. And I’m like, oh, I forget. Did I tell you? And she’s like, no, you told your other you told your other wive or husband.

Fern :
It’s it’s good and bad because you do tend to kind of leave this other person out who’s involved, but only like on the periphery providing reports with advance. And I think it’s a good way to to approach it, because I think if you look at it like and I know you say you I say this jokingly, but I think it probably works because you do look at it as a marriage. Right. Which is like we’re like in a legit relationship where if we don’t make this work, there’s gonna be catastrophic for both of us. Well, I think a lot of other people look at it as like college. It’s a it’s a it’s transactional versus like this is our relationship and this is going to take work to make it work.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. And the thing itself, the box, the affiliate, the community is now it’s own thing. And so as much as I’m important and he’s important like a marriage, it is its own entity that sometimes we have to forgo our own personal desires. If it benefits, then the marriage. And that’s the part I think as far as the strength goes, he always instinctively has that sense of what would make this thing better. And then I feel like I’m better at the nuts and bolts on the ground tactical level. How do we execute that money? Whereas the tight schedule. Yeah.

Fern :
So what have you guys had a significant disagreement at this point?

Jack Ryan :
Just that like you basically told me to settle the F down and let it include me. Like you got to brief me on things before. And he was right. Like it was like, you’re right. I was operating as if I was the only one in the house. And that’s inappropriate.

Eric Heup :
I don’t remember what that was about.

Jack Ryan :
Because you’re so damn nice. And it really. I mean, as far as arguments go. But it really was it was like it was in a very nice way of like, hey, dude, you can’t do that. Like, I’m 50 50.

Fern :
And it’s it’s interesting that you say that, Eric. And I’m curious what your thoughts on this are, is that was one of the hard lessons that I had to learn. And I think this is probably true for most people that leave the military, where the military is obviously a very authoritative authoritarian environment where like I don’t have to ask you guys to make a decision like I’m the boss. Like we’re making the decision. We’re moving forward. But you and everybody in the military is kind of okay with that. But just that’s how it works. Like you have the rank wins. So everybody just shut your face and we’re gonna move on. But that doesn’t. Work in the real world, because people can just tell you like, no, I don’t like that. Like, this sucks. Like, whatever. Like, how weird. How is that for you, Eric? Like trying to deal with that on on the front.

Eric Heup :
So it’s funny. I’ve never I’ve never looked at Jack as Lieutenant Commander Ryan.

Fern :
It’s good. That’s a good start.

Eric Heup :
You know, like I have respect for his position in the Navy and what he’s done with that. That’s never really affected me directly, and so I’ve always seen him as is Jack the my friend or Crossfit, coach or business partner. And and so I’m not a I think early on because he’s not Jack’s older than me, but he’s not that much older than me. And but I’ve always I kind of looked him as a mentor for a while until we started going into this. I need to tell myself. We’re on the same level now, so I need to not hesitate when something is bothering me or when I want to talk about something. And so what I tend to do is if something is bothering me, I sleep on it. And if it’s still bothering me later, we’ll chat about it. But I feel. Comfortable enough that if something is bothering me, I can talk to him about it. And he doesn’t take it personal and he doesn’t get mad. And he listens to it. And even if he doesn’t necessarily agree, which I feel like we always end up finding some sort of middle ground. And I think we’re both really good at this kind of going with our gut feeling. And we have very similar gut feelings. Again, a lot of things.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. And it often I agree.

Fern :
It sounds like there’s just an effort to communicate on a very regular basis.

Jack Ryan :
Always. Always, always. Yeah. And that’s. And appreciate that there will be differences, miscommunications and always assume the other person made a choice for the good reason. For the reason that it would best serve the box. The affiliate, the other coaches, whatever. That’s the first assumption. Rather than why did this person.

Fern :
That’s that’s a really. Metta thought to right. By the way, which is like the assumption is, is not malice. Right. Which is where we all go to immediately. Why would they do that? Because they’re selfish and they don’t want to do that when it’s just like, hey, if I should just stop, take a breath. Think about this for a second. I don’t think they wanted to screw everybody over. They’re probably thinking about, you know, this was, you know, or or maybe it was they weren’t thinking of themselves, which, by the way, is OK.

Jack Ryan :
And totally normal, cause I am too right now. Yeah. I like how they make me angry.

Fern :
Self-preservation is a real thing. And so I think that’s a really important distinction. But the communication is is. Interesting, because I think that leads to the other thing that I want to talk about is like because you do that well, it’s not shocking to me that you guys decided to start a podcast, which is which is super important. And why you reached out to me and why we’re kind of doing this is because you had questions about what we do and. But I have questions just like at what point did you decide to do a podcast and why for the gym? So Jack and Eric run a podcast for their gym, which I think every gym should do, because going back to it like communication is key.

Eric Heup :
Yeah. So as I kind of wish that little history, we, um, we were finding that Eric and I were talking a lot and. Well, right. Like we were connecting most of the morning classes. I run the morning, he’s the afternoon. It kind of splits about the middle of the day. And if we don’t physically see each other, we’re texting, e-mailing, volleyball, talking about how the classes went. When we coach, about 80 percent of the class is still we like the owner operator model. We run pretty lean. But what we’re finding is that the morning crew pretty consistently would be Jack’s classes or Jack’s crew and the afternoon classes were Eric’s crew. And so we saw the differences. We talked about the athletes. But every now and then, somebody from the afternoon class would come to the morning class and they would. I could sense a difference in, oh, like the expectations of words I would use or intention is the same intention that Eric would say. But just a little bit differently. And so we’re like it was a very serendipitous Chris Cooper. I think either wrote a blog or put out a podcast about content development should not be for the sake of developing content or media content, but it should be selfishly for you as a affiliate owner or a coach or whatever.

Jack Ryan :
Figure out how it’s going to develop you and the purpose that it’s gonna serve for your community. And so I went, well, we got the oh, I like podcasts you like. I guess we talk about them all the time. We talk about them with our classes, weather warming up, stretching afterwards, whatever. I said, let’s do one. We got this nice little nook connected to our box. We drink coffee. We always end up ended up talking after coffee. And so I think we’re pretty alliterative. We came up with grounds after rounds and that’s that’s why.

Fern :
I see the connection there. Coffee. I like that.

Jack Ryan :
And the funny thing was that the sort of that we would review coffees for the first 10 or 15 minutes at the beginning. So it’s sort of. We would buy it. Yeah. We’d pick up maybe like one or two different type of cold boot brews, different brands and we would taste it. And it was you know, it was our excuse to be silly. But also, we’re both studying or trying to study for the level three. And we just weren’t. Nothing was connecting. Nothing was sticking. We’d like. BLOCK off an hour and pick an article or whatever.

Jack Ryan :
And it fell off about a week or two in no cards. Didn’t work like nothing was working. So we said it. All right. Well, we’ll review coffee. We’ll nerd out about something with Crossfit,. And I noticed, like Doug in Doug’s Harrison criss crossed like on there doing the 10 general physical skills, a series of that. I like it. I think they stole that from us. But that’s all right. They did. I probably would probably. Yeah. They’ll resolve it. But that’s the space. That’s the beauty of it. Nothing we’re doing is new. But it was a great source for us to study, explore things that made us uncomfortable. Try this whole like mess around with media and what it looks like. And it’s ebbed and flowed. We don’t really review coffees anymore. But we’ve had different guests on. We’ve talked about body image issues. We’ve talked about medical like major female and male medical issues. And then how did they transform into the gym? And we’re region I mean, our audience, I think, is a lot bigger than we think it is, but it’s still the ability to be a micro casting forum for us to serve our purposes and the purposes that our community says that they need.

Fern :
What has been the feedback from the gym about the podcast?

Eric Heup :
I will first, I think it’s another reason was we got a lot of the talking about Crossfit, out of our system, so I didn’t have to hear about it all the time. So we got to throw out or nerd out or whatever and take some of the pressure off them from having to listen to us. So that helped. But the thing that actually lately we’ve been doing these fitness field trips where we decided we’re going to try things outside of Crossfit, just to kind of explore. So we did we did Jazzercise. One of our athletes was actually a Jazzercise instructor.

Fern :
Yes. Did You wear an outfit?

Jack Ryan :
We just wear shorts and Ferren t shirts. But you don’t knock it. They are they are an awesome group.

Eric Heup :
And. But this idea that there is a.

Fern :
There is a Jazzercise like couple of stories down from soy that we have. And it’s like I mean, they’re getting it in there, man,.

Jack Ryan :
Like 50 years, Jason, 50 years. That thing has been going and not anytime soon.

Fern :
That’s crazy.

Eric Heup :
But it’s but these ladies, it’s been getting outside of it’s been getting outside of our comfort zone, especially with the Jazzercise. But. But it’s just kind of exploring that. Yes, we are. Crossfit, June. We are Crossfit, owners. We buy into Crossfit,, but really we just want to explore how people are moving and just encourage that people are moving. So, you know, everyone can do Crossfit, but not cross. Crossfit, is not for everyone. Cool. There are these other avenues and if anything, it’s just for us to kind of explore that as it helps us dial in more what this Crossfit, thing is. And then what other kind of stuff is out there. I think people really enjoyed seeing us get a little extra sillier than we normally do. Yeah, but these things.

Eric Heup :
For me So I’m a big proponent of the.

Jack Ryan :
Because I feel like I’m yelling at my yelling.

Fern :
No, no, it’s good. You’re good. NO, you’re not yelling.

Eric Heup :
Thanks Jason.

Jack Ryan :
I feel like the the framework of observable, measurable, repeatable is one of the UN uncelebrated elements of Crossfit, that you could over emphasize it. But in the end, it is the thing that if you don’t try to stay true to it, people will lose interest quickly. And so I can observe improvement. I can measure improvement. And then the repeatable element of it is the thing that if you can make that happen in the first week, two weeks, three months, a year, you got somebody for life. And so that framework is the one that we sort of when we started out with this fitness field, trips are like, all right. Well, we want to do is take this efficacy of Crossfit, as a methodology that we know we believe in and we can measure and observe it, measure, repeat it. Let’s see if these other disciplines and practices we do want to say they have to abide by our rules. But did they have something analogous as a metric that they use to observe improvement, measure improvement, and then give that repeatability to their participants and their community? And if they do that, do they see somebody stick? Yoga didn’t really. It’s a great but I mean, shoot, it’s been going on for 5000 years. So, you know, it’s been around. Yeah. But the the individual practitioners, I’m not sure it has that same element to it as what we were looking for. It was a great one. That was a fun field trip. But it didn’t it didn’t feel as sticky.

Jack Ryan :
This Jazzercise, they’re legit. Like they have program. They program that methodology. There’s a structure to it. They push it out like you follow it. There’s your development of steps. Like it has a lot of the same development and practitioner development that we do. And then they have a metric they use and measure how many times you come. And one of our values is consistency. Our members be consistent, you know, just pick a number and come that many times a week for three months and let us and then we’ll talk about how you’re doing. They’re very similar. And so in that sense, though, they use different language. You can tell why they’ve lasted. They’re not a fad like it’s it’s made it. And that was a cool thing. We’re excited that our next one we’re looking at like more ball sports, maybe like a there’s a pickleball group in the area. And so like. All right. Is there. Does it apply? Does this metric apply? And so having this as an excuse for us to dig into what makes Crossfit, a methodology in a program, not just throw some balls at people and way to people and see what they do, but there is this is helping us develop both as coaches, as owners, as people to be able to talk about it. And then I think take that level three, because we’re embracing it.

Fern :
The the Jazzercise one is interesting because this is something that I don’t think people come to the realization of until they’ve been doing Crossfit, for a while. So, you know, there’s three pieces. The coach we’re trying to achieve, you know, educate, inspire, entertain.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah.

Fern :
And. I think people overlook the entertainment aspect of that. And it’s easy to do, and most of us do it unintentionally because we nerd out, we’re like, hey, this is how it has to work. But there is I mean, I’ve been to some gyms that. Let’s just say the coaching was not good. And nope, it’s not because they were resistant to continue education or anything like that. They just didn’t know. They didn’t know. I’ll tell you what. The people in that gym are having a good time and the gym is packed and people are moving terribly. And I have to take a step back and say this is a good thing. Like like is as bad as much as I want to go in here and start correcting these movements. This is a good thing. People are moving. They’re having a good time. And this business owner is having a positive effect and giving people the best hour of their day. And sometimes I have to take stock in that say, OK, good coaching, got systems. Are people having fun? Yes. That’s why people come back. Like people only Crossfit, gyms because they had a bad experience. For the most part. They leave me because they because they come in different. They become indifferent about Crossfit,. Like you’re just kind of like me, you know. And at that point is when you lose people.

Eric Heup :
Burpees again.

Jack Ryan :
I think the fun and maybe this is this gets a little bit more existential or a little bit philosophical and the exploration of fun. I do think entertainment simply for entertainment sake, will eventually run its course and stagnate. And it becomes sort of the fast food of fitness. Right. Like soldier fit or these. You aren’t them. I want to fashion like high intensity interval training programs. Yeah, they’re freakin fun, right? You’re gonna have a good time at some point. It does, Wayne. And so the efficacy of this program, that’s I think a more engaged this is where this platform, this podcast is our ability to flush that kind of stuff out six months in. We you know, I said, you know what? Any box needs to charity might have I might have heard it on some podcasts somewhere or something. If you haven’t done dot.com programming for a year, you can’t get really call yourself an affiliate. That is a Crossfit, affiliate. You gotta go back to the mothership and try it and just do it for no other reason than say we did it for years. And so we talked about in the podcast, I said, we’re gonna do it. Screw it. We’re gonna make it. And what it really did, programming aside, going back to what we said at the beginning. It made us better coaches because there were some days like rowwing Cindy call again like it was. Who is this? Well, what do you do? How do you fill the hour? How do you make people still see that there’s something to be learned there? And it it ran its course and we moved on. And I think, though, the worth of fun doesn’t mean, you know, rollercoasters, candy, cotton candy and sounds fun can just be hard and grind me if the intention is set correctly, if you coach the crap out of it, if you have the person’s best interest in it. If you do all those other things that make you a professional, not just oh, here’s the here’s the timeline, here’s me. Here’s my cats and I’m going to hurt them through the hour.

Fern :
It’s interesting you say that because that was gonna be my question to you is like, what are some of the things that what are some of the unintentional consequences of the podcast and doing dot.com that you guys have noticed within your coaching? Because I like I know what it’s brought for me as far as things that I’ve developed and I’ve improved because I write a blog, because I do podcasts, because I run a YouTube channel and the. The result of that were none of the things that I was trying to achieve. I was doing things like he said selfishly because I was trying to document something or just duck my mind on some platform. But what did you guys find?

Eric Heup :
I think people really like people really buy in. And I think it almost they feel like they’re just as much a part of the conversation as to what’s happening in Virginia and the community as we are. And so, yes, we’re the owners. Yes, we’re the coaches. But it’s created this relationship where they feel like they’re there. They are. And they are just as important as what’s on the whiteboard, as the methodology, as anything that goes on inside this building and even outside of it.

Jack Ryan :
For me as a coach, I often found myself defaulting too well when I did this workout or the way I felt about this or, you know, that sort of.

Fern :
by The way the last hard classes at the prep school was nineteen ninety nine, just like when I was there.

Jack Ryan :
You got it right. I like that. That’s narcissistic. Like this is about me and I’m the benchmark in Baba blahblahblah which I think for some like it still comes in every now and then. If you’re talking to somebody who has, you know, an athlete who’s very similar and kind of moves in the same way by context and, you know, referential experience. But what I found with these podcasts was that especially when you do one on one interviews with people, is the patience of actually listening to somebody’s story ask. And I think either you said it or Akerman said it. Ask one more. No, bennink. It was when you had Chuck on cars.

Fern :
That’s that’s a Caraswell. That’s a Csraswell.

Jack Ryan :
We’ll ask one more question. And I took a freakin second Masters in Wellness coaching, which is all about active questioning. And I still took me doing this and putting it into practice. Ask one more question. Take another breath. Ask somebody another question. What does it feel like? Well, where do you think it fell apart? Well, what would it feel like if it was going well? You know, like stuff like that of these open ended nowise all what’s where’s Howse? What do you think? And solutions like providing solutions like let them come to it and taking thirty forty five extra seconds in the middle of a class feeling like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, we’re gonna run over. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Wait. Take a breath. Ask him a question. And now listen, somebody goes from this like defeated internally rotated shoulder to big smiles and they’re actually having fun because they’re a part of the process. I saw it. We did an interview with this with a really close friend. She’s, She started coaching here, has since moved. And the first time we interviewed her, I had a timeline. I take my questions. We moved on. The feedback I got was.

Fern :
The script, for God’s sake.

Jack Ryan :
The feedback we got was, why did you guys stop? It seemed like she had so much more to say. Oh, my gosh. Blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, shit. So we did a part two and I opened it with. I cut you off. We need to do this again. Let’s dig deeper. And it was an awesome like that was a byproduct that I’ve seen Echo in my last two years of teaching at school. Here, like everywhere. Just take a breath and ask another question.

Fern :
What about you Eric

Eric Heup :
When it comes to the podcast, it’s.

Fern :
Just all of it in general like that communication piece?

Eric Heup :
Yeah, I mean, I kind of feel the same way about Jack, like there’s all these things that kind of come and gone. And so whether it’s in the podcast and talking about things and I think with me a lot of times because I get my own had a lot. A lot of people do. Talking through things helps me a lot with all these other things. And so sitting and talking about your episode on the whiteboard brief. Yeah, we talked about that one of our meetings and how important that whiteboard brief is, but also like don’t get yourself caught up in it too much. And like I listen to the podcast, like all that stuff really makes a lot of sense. And then we talked about it more and I started realizing, oh, I really do this and I don’t do this. And so just that little thing. I think if it take if it’s made three to five minutes of my class that much better on a daily basis, then that’s a win. And even it was, you know, said thirty to forty five seconds just asking another question. So something in the podcast, which I think a lot of people are like, what do you really have to talk about for an hour?

Fern :
A lot. Well, I think we’re at an hour so I mean, yeah. The thing that I’ve learned, particularly when you have a community and that community starts to grow as it starts to go from 10 to 15, 20 to whatever, it’s going to be a couple hundred. And this is something I’ve repeatedly have, too. And I still do to this day have to communicate to the staff is that there is no such thing as over communicating like it is. It is 100 percent, without a doubt, impossible to do because no one, not everybody’s on every medium. Right. Not everybody’s checking Instagram or Facebook all the time. They’re like, what’s too many posts? I’m like. It’s not a thing like that. That’s just not how the algorithm works. But be to make sure that people know what is going on. And that is a huge thing that I’ve learned, is that when we communicate, it has to go out on every medium. Like even if it seems like overly redundant, it’s like send it out. Like if you do a podcast. Figure out how to transcribe it and put in written form if you do a video for how to take that and make it into a podcast. There is there is just no end to that communication. You just need to do it. And then what you find over time is you refine it and you get better at it and you figure out different ways to spend it. And you’re never it’s never good enough. And that’s the hard part about all of this, is you feel like you should be. It mastered at some point and and just like we put a post up on Instagram on the best our panel yesterday about programming. And I feel like the communication piece is just like programming. It’s something you’re never going to master. It is only something that you evolve into. And that’s it. And that’s the point.

Jack Ryan :
And I think the intention is always to to find the consistency of what you’re trying to say. And so that’s actually a question I had for you guys of. And you answered it that releasing an episode every day at this point to me, from where we’re coming, from our perspective, I’m like, man, that is just that feels like over stimulation. But it would be overstimulation because it would be overstimulation for us. We’re like it’s a it is now in a weekly cycle for us because the podcast is sort of the thing where we hash out the week of thoughts and you know what I mean? But for you guys, it isn’t. It’s definitely it’s serving its purpose of it’s these little chunks of knowledge where we can you can come back home and it becomes a resource for coaches, affiliate owners and stuff to come. So that’s it. I’m glad you said that.

Fern :
Well, it’s also there differ. So context matters. Like if somebody was going to suggest they were gonna do a daily podcast for an affiliate. That would be that would that would be exhausting. You know, like once a week is plenty. You get a bi weekly podcast. Is is plenty enough for most affiliates. But this is different just because we have so many people. We want to talk to you. And going back to what you said before and I’ve said this repeatedly on the podcast, like it’s selfish and you ask me a question is like, why did you guys start a podcast? And the reason we started the podcast.

Fern :
Excuse me is because, you know, acromion and I talked about this for probably far too long before we started was we’re having all these conversations anyway. Yeah, we were having this conversation. We were having the conversation with Chuck.

Fern :
And at some point, the selfishness of that kind of got to me. And as like other people, a I think want to be a part of this conversation. They’re just not physically here. So why don’t we just share that with the world? Like, why don’t we just open up that that discussion to everybody? Because, like, clearly, we’re passionate about it. We all know there’s no shortage of people that like to talk about Crossfit,. So why don’t we just open that up to the world? And it’s been amazing. And I think going back to, you know, not because we’re amazing. It has nothing to do with that. It’s just because, like, we are passionate about it, just as other people are. We just happen to have resources because of it, because of what we do professionally. What the key takeaway and probably why your podcast is successful within your gym is because it is selfish, because it provides value to you, but it also provides value to everybody in your immediate circle.

Jack Ryan :
And I think that comes back to your original thing of why, even if we are a gym of 60 people and you are a small little circle, the reason is exactly the same. Your circle is just a little bit bigger because you guys have access to these big name things and you serve a purpose. The audience, it feels you nailed it. It feels exactly the way you describe it. Like I feel like I am the Tosh episode. I’ve talked to Tache in a long time. He was at the academy where he was behind the scenes a lot and helping with gold. But it was great to hear. It’s great to hear U2 talking. It felt like I was in the room with two guys. I know. But even if I didn’t know them, which I had a chance to talk to somebody who listened to the podcast and was like, wow, that was a really great insight into endurance training and mindset and stuff. And so that it serves these secondary tertiary stream purposes that we don’t even know that the ripple effect it’s years is the exact same reason as ours, the volume or the size of the audience. Does it matter if it was just the two?

Fern :
It’s irrelevant moving it. Yeah. It’s irrelevant. Before the podcast that if some of like some of those podcast never saw the light of day like I was selfishly, would I be like I got something out of this like gorgeous enough to be able to put them on this medium and go out from a from a from an affiliate owner standpoint? I guess my practical advice would be, you know, figure out during a podcast A is not hard.

Fern :
Right. Like, you know, it’s it’s it’s so incredibly easy. Like just I got an iPhone. Yeah. I have an iPhone. And if you’re if you’re struggling with how to start that here, here’s my advice. And you guys can give me yours. Find the person that you find most interesting in the gym. Buy them coffee. Sit down. You don’t even have to tell em what you’re gonna talk about. Press record and start asking them questions.

Jack Ryan :
Totally.

Fern :
And then and outside of that. The other thing is, maybe you’re not good at writing. But like when just pushed me, just my wife, when she pushed me to start writing the blog. She was like, you don’t. She’s like, you don’t have to talk at people. She’s like, just tell them about yourself. Right. So I write my blog and my brought my blog is mostly the comedy that is my life.

Jack Ryan :
You don’t have that many spelling and grammar errors, by the way. I disagree with you, even though it’s a very humblebrag. It’s actually pretty clean money.

Fern :
Well, I definitely. It’s evolved. I would say. But like one of the things I was always very conscious of is I don’t want to talk about people. I just want to tell people my story. And this is like this is what I learned. Take it or leave it. Like, if you don’t read it, it’s fine. It’s it’s partially not for you anyway. It’s for me. So but the feedback that we’ve gotten off of that and that I’ve gotten personally and the feedback we get from the from the podcast is it’s OK to be vulnerable. It’s OK to say, I don’t have all the answers. It’s okay to say, like, I messed up and it it it fosters that community and that bond that you really, really want in an affiliate, which is like people, they want to get something more than fitness out of coming into the walls. Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Ryan :
What else, though? We were going to. I don’t know. You probably haven’t listened hours and I didn’t tell you this in the write up that I sent to you. So we do a thing at the antivirus. Chris and Doug have their pet peeve of the week. Does. Decided we wanted to do a gratitude week. Oh, look, simple. You know, it can be as big as your world peace and it can be as simple as I’m wearing these. So mine is. And I’ll give it. So here’s my God. Eric gave me these Lululemon shorts. I’m showing I’m showing Jason on the camera. Yup. You can’t see it. Give these a while back and they have an insert in them like an underwear insert. OK. So you don’t have to wear underwear if you don’t want to. Well the longest time I didn’t like the shorts because I wouldn’t wear underwear because they have the incertain its socks or whatever. So I started wearing underwear with them. And I’m really grateful that I did. I love these shorts. They’re like my new shorts. It’s like it just it feels real secure. Snuggle. I feel very snuggles. That’s my gratitude. Figuring out like you still allowed to wear underwear, even if you’ve got inserts in those shorts.

Eric Heup :
Go. Or handsand work. Yes, sir. Yeah. Really? Out of weddings. Healthy.

Fern :
All right, Eric, what do you got?

Eric Heup :
So mine’s actually. So. So my oldest brother, Michael, just celebrated his 40th birthday. And so for the longest time. So my dad’s name is Michael Lewis. My brother’s name is Michael James. And I’m Eric Michael. And my brother is Steven James. And so I used to, like, drag my pants. Yeah. Right. Like use G. Michael’s been used three times. James has been used twice. I was like, why are my parents so lazy when it comes to me? And I was talking to my sister the other day and she goes, who’s Jennifer? And so that’s. She got away from James initally. And she goes, you know why those your middle names, right? I’m like, yeah, I got lazy.

Eric Heup :
She goes, no, she goes, when you I have a twin brother. So he goes, when you and Steven were born. They wanted to give you each one of Michael’s names, Michael and James, so that that way you always had a gift from your older brother. And so, though, Michael James, my older brother, I’m Eric Michael and Steve was Steven James.

Eric Heup :
So we always have this gift of the name of my older brother. I was like, oh, man, that was so close. Like, I feel like a jerk for all these years that my parents were lame. That’s cool story. So really, there were lame not tell me stories.

Eric Heup :
I’m so my gratitude is my parents and my brother that kind of started behind what I thought were just boring middle names.

Fern :
I like it. I’ll go to my turn. I I’m grateful for having some people in my inner circle who are free of judgment for the amount of mistakes that I make on a daily basis. So for anybody who’s not. Yeah. For anybody who’s not been in the in the inner circle of somebody who is very entrepreneurial in nature, it can be a rough road. Like you just kind of have to follow this person into the fray and hope that you come out OK on the other end. And I’m lucky to have some ride or die people in my circle that they kind of get it. And they’ve told me they’re like, we get it. We’re onboard. It’s fine. Like, which has helped me acknowledge a lot of mistakes along the way, which is help foster all of those relationships. Like, hey, guys, I really fucked that. I’m sorry. So lesson learned. Moving on. So, yeah, if you can be vulnerable and you can bring those people in your inner circle, life gets real good.

Jack Ryan :
That a good one.

Fern :
All right, Jack, I know you’re a reader. But Eric chime in here, too. What if you could recommend a book? Doesn’t have to be a business book. And I know you guys are hip to this art because you listen to the podcast.

Jack Ryan :
But like what we forgot, though, I forgot about this. Listening to one of the episodes reason as I was walking out with Chris Irwin, Chris Irwin was that your set is at ninety seven grand. So is that like you said it.

Fern :
Yeah. He is hes a 97 grad.

Jack Ryan :
You know he and I rode together too while we were there.

Fern :
Yeah i didnt know that.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah. We were in a four together at stoats not stoats at Nationals. His thirsty is senior my sophomore year. Yeah.

Fern :
Yeah.

Jack Ryan :
First the youngster for all the Naval Academy or the left wing or the leftover boat and we loved it. We had the bodies. Yeah, I like it. So yeah, I heard his recommendation of do where good press fields. That was a good, good choice. But I’ll let Eric jump in on it.

Eric Heup :
So books I’m currently reading. If you give a mouse a cookie bars take. And then what about Fiona the hippo?

Jack Ryan :
So if you give a mouse a cookie. Don’t sell that short. Right. That whole series is about consequences. Yes. And it’s this idea of just because you think it will like everything, everything’s connected and everything will come back. So the idea of Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence, like the heaviness of life, is that everything comes back to serve its purpose. Also, toddlers love it.

Fern :
So I was going to I was going to say, don’t sleep on the kids books. A lot to be learned there.

Eric Heup :
You look about like this is an amazing lesson. It is myself reading even after she’s already asleep.

Fern :
So you find yourself still reading it. You’re like, oh, I guess you’re enjoying this. That’s fine.

Jack Ryan :
I definitely have a list. Really, really long. And so I was trying to think of what’s been most impactful and has come up. There’s two actually that I’m going to cheat. One is Narvel Harare’s sapience, which.

Fern :
Oh, yeah. Joe, I heard Joe Rogan talk about that.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah, he is. If you want to talk about something, he’s a he’s a historian and he’s amazing at it. His second one homogeneous I didn’t think was as good, but the sapiens. There is a couple of middle chapters that explain so much about language and the way we form in things that make that we really go, oh my gosh, that totally makes sense.

Fern :
And we are still monkeys.

Jack Ryan :
Yeah, it can be applied like universally as a species, culturally as our country. And then in the box, like you can see the different levels of it. And then there’s one. This is a straight up nerd text. I actually sent it to Bergeron, allow that and never heard anything. So I don’t know. Got it. So he listens if he listens to your podcast and he hears this.

Jack Ryan :
I don’t know. But he does use the phrase best hour of their day quite a bit on his blog and his trademark, what it’s called, the metaphors we live by.

Fern :
Ok.

Jack Ryan :
And it it again, it defines how language works that you can’t get away from metaphors, that everything we talk about is in metaphors because it is experientially powerful and it’s how we orient ourselves to things we don’t understand, the things we do understand. And so we teach it. They loved it to the top 50 in the class at. And it resonates. And so it’s a great. Those are my two sort of. If if you’re in this coaching space, we use language as our medium to convey to people experience QRL importance. You need to be thinking about the language you use. And that’s a great love to do it.

Fern :
I like it. Now I will tell you. You can get away like metaphors can get out of hand. Right. So that’s one thing if you get into well, this just from practicing over from a coaching and public speaking standpoint, like metaphors are great, but in small doses.

Jack Ryan :
So right there. But you get that’s a metaphor. Exactly. When somebody there was an article recently in the morning chock up A, why still use RX and I think she’s wrong. I forget who wrote it. Came in her name all sudden. I don’t know about know. I think she’s wrong. Because if you look at it, it’s a metaphor. It’s a metaphor. It’s like a doctor doesn’t just write things. adiel doesn’t come in whatever dose you want. It comes in two hundred milligram caps because it has an efficacy. Now you can take for cpas

Fern :
This is the analytical part of Jack coming out here, right?

Jack Ryan :
Yeah, it does not. It comes in a bottle of, you know, 40 capsules, 200 milligrams a thing because there’s that there’s a consistency to it. And so prescription RX is a thing. It’s just badly used a lot of times.

Fern :
And so that read, which is a whole nother topic, that we could literally do a topic just on that, which we do.

Eric Heup :
There you go. That’s a metaphor. That’s a metaphor.

Fern :
One one book that Jack. You turn me on to which I read, which is a really good one is influence. Great book. That’s a great book. So if you have not read Influence and you’re in the customer service business and you need to read influence and understand all that stuff. But big takeaway for today, guys, learn how to communicate with your team, with your partners, with the community, and you can do that, be a whole bunch of different mediums. And there is no over communication. It is not a thing. So do it. Awesome, guys. I know you guys got places to be. Thank you for your time. This was fun. I appreciate it.

Eric Heup :
Thanks. Yep.

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