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150. Zoe Harcombe | CrossFit Health

150. Zoe Harcombe | CrossFit Health

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On today’s episode, Fern sits down with Zoe Harcombe, who has been brought up a few times on perceives podcast as she spoke at the most recent trainer summit. Zoe explains how and why the obesity epidemic is getting worse. Yet we are moving more and eating less, so why isn’t the problem not getting better? Zoe breaks down the points in such a way that you’ll be able to relay the information back to your athletes to help them actually lose weight. They’re so much information in this episode you’ll probably want to listen to it twice and check out Zoe other many books to take a deep dive into it all. 

Timestamps: 

(1:01) Zoe’s fascinated by Obesity
(5:37) Basal Metabolic Rate
(7:10) No essential carbohydrates
(11:58) The biggest mistakes
(14:52) What is weight loss?
(18:36) Zoe’s surmised stance on nutrition
(19:38) Liver is insane, everyone should be eating it
(22:10) Fasting
(26:00) Vegan/ Vegetarian diet
(33:04) How to have these conversations in your affiliate?
(37:44) Game Changers 

Zoe’s books

Obesity and Over weight Chart

Bendict 1917 Study

nutritiondata.self.com

Zoeharcombe.com

Soical Media:

T: @Zoeharcombe 
Ig: @Zoeharcombe

Recommend Book: 

The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable 

Zoe Harcombe .mp4 transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

Zoe Harcombe .mp4 was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2020.

Fern:
All right, everybody. Welcome back to the best hour of their day furniture. I am here with Dr. Zoe Hart. Some of you may have heard of her sleep. I had the very pleasure, just a pleasure of watching her present at the Crossfit, Trainer Summit this year in San Diego. And after that presentation, Ackerman and I were on the show because she’s got just really awesome stuff to say. So much is in Wales. And she’s like six hours ahead. So this a little bit broken up. We apologize. Thanks for coming on the show Zoe. I appreciate it.

Zoe Harcombe:
Thanks so much for having me. That’s really kind intro. Thank you.

Fern:
So your background is not like you started into this nutrition. I like a little bit later then most people’s.

Zoe Harcombe:
Correct. Yes, correct.

Fern:
So how did you like at what point? A little bit like what we you say like this. I want to kind of dive into this chronic disease. This nutrition fiasco that is that we’re all kind of really coming to a light on.

Zoe Harcombe:
Ok. I’ve always been absolutely fascinated by obesity. So I’m a mathematician by background. I did maths at Cambridge, switched to economics, but I’m a numbers person and it’s never made sense to me that I’ve never met anyone who wants to be overweight, let alone obese. And yet 70 percent of the developed world is one of those obese or overweight. It just doesn’t make sense. So I was trying to understand why is it that we have an obesity epidemic? And I’m generally fascinated by weight loss and dieting and food and nutrition and all the rest of it. But this is real obesity paradox that that kind of captured me. And when you go back to understand the obesity epidemic, you’ve got the ones started when it started. And that’s a brilliant chart that comes from the Heinz U.S. sources where you look at obesity and overweight separate lines. And then the two lines added together and you look at them from about 1960 mid-1960’s. And then at about 1976 and 1980, the two trajectories just take off like an airplane. I mean, it’s just so striking. It’s not true. And so you just have to say, so what happened there? What happened? Because something happened.

Zoe Harcombe:
We went from the U.K. We went from a couple of cent obesity in 1972 to 25 percent obesity at the end of the last century. So we just followed you guys just a little bit behind. You have to say, so what happens? I’m open to any suggestion, any hypothesis. But there’s one that I’ve got on. I’m not alone in having this one that it’s to do with our dietary guidelines, because when you look at the evidence of did we eat more? No, we didn’t. Actually, the U.K. data show is that we’ve actually been eating less over those decades when obesity increased tenfold. Did we do less? No, actually, we’ve been doing more. We’ve got more marathons, more marathon runners, more gyms, more boxes. I can’t move in the streets now for tripping over people doing cycling, running. Whatever. We didn’t we didn’t eat more. We didn’t do less. Something else happened. And again, I’m open to any other hypotheses. But the thing that really struck me was that we changed our dietary guidelines.

Fern:
So one of the things that I’ve struggled with immensely over the years is, you know. So obviously, nutrition is a contentious topic.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yes.

Fern:
And it’s I’ve always struggled with. OK, well, I guess we can put us in the Crossfit, kind of bucket route where we’re kind of like, hey, the dietary guidelines are garbage. It’s not an energy balance issue, because if we assume it is an area you balance the numbers, don’t speak to that. Meaning people are only more aware they’re only doing more exercise and chronic disease and obesity keep climbing. So it’s got to be something else. And anybody to have a conversation with like. It’s just a real tough topic to discuss because people sit in one of two camps and are very, very hesitant to move from that camp.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah. Yeah. There’s a massive debate. There’s a calorie is a calorie. Calories n equals calories out. I actually did talk at my local box last night and I started off talking about nutrition 1 0 1 and then we went on to what actually is weight loss and how do you lose weight and calories, Carlories got nothing to do with it. I mean, if you really think that all you need to do is eat less and or do more, you have not looked at the evidence as I have. Going back to 1917, Benedicte, first dietary deficit, calorie deficit experiment undertaken on 12 men. And that experiment has then been repeated throughout Sookie’s or at Stonecutter McLaren Dhume Up to the front stator from 2007 2015 article basically saying the chance of losing weight from deficit dieting is about 1 in 210 for women. And I can’t remember what it was men. I mean it’s it’s absurd. And of course we know that it’s it’s incredibly unsuccessful.

Fern:
Yeah. My my my issue with that has always been so my wife and I have done nutrition, kind of counseling with a lot of people and the vast majority of them that we work with all under eat.

Fern:
Number one meaning like they’re not eating anything that would resemble total caloric intake that would. Be even close to there BMR, so there is a metabolic rate. Yes, and a lot of them will have them consume almost double their BMR and lose weight. So for that alone, there’s just like a pretty strong kind of counterpoint to like, hey, maybe that’s not the best solution is just to reduce caloric intake. Because if I can essentially like, you know, in air quotes over feed somebody, which we know where we’re feeding them or feeding them compared to dietary guidelines, why are they losing weight like that? Doesn’t make sense.

Zoe Harcombe:
But, you know, you mentioned such an interesting thing there, said the basal metabolic rate. So think about the basal metabolic rate. You go back to nutrition 1 0 1 and you say what macronutrients support the basal metabolic rate. And of course, the primary micronutrients that support things like body repair, maintenance, muscle building, fight and infection build in bone density are fat and protein. Carbohydrates are okay for energy and that’s about it. So what you can have with your clients, particularly if they’ve been on a calorie deficit diet, because what the evidence shows that evidence back to Benedek 1917, what tends to happen is people lose weight in the short term up to about 6 months, then they regain it and then more. And what they’ve actually done in that process is lose muscle, lose lean tissue. And so when they regain the weight, they’re actually they gain more body fat than they had before. So they actually need fewer calories going forward than they did before they started the calorie deficit diet. So they’re in this vicious cycle of eating less and less and getting hungry and hungrier. And the more they try to eat less, the more they make bad food choices. So they don’t eat the fat and protein that actually the body is crying out for. They eat carbohydrates because carbohydrates have got four calories per gram. Fat has 9 high in protein, is quite difficult to overeat as a isolated micronutrient anyway. It tends to come with fat. Do you tend to have meat, fish, egg dairy, fat proteins? So they just get into this terrible, terrible mess where they’re not eating too much by any means. As you’ve noticed, they’re eating the wrong things.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yes. And you brought up something interesting at the summit. There was like your presentation was really, really just fun to listen to. And what’s interesting is, number one, you’re talking to an audience who virtually everybody agrees with you. But now the you brought something and it’s a pretty I think this is one of your big talking points is there are no essential carbohydrates.

Fern:
And I say that because I don’t think. But I don’t want to speak for you. I don’t think your stances like you should not eat carbs. I think if you’re just trying to de-emphasize carbohydrates in the role of nutrition. Is that.

Zoe Harcombe:
Absolutely? Absolutely. I’m glad that came across as it did, because it’s just a nutritional fact that there is no essential carbohydrate. There are essential proteins. We know those is the essential amino acids. They’re essential fats, which, of course, we know is omega 3 and omega 6. There are no essential carbohydrates if you and I know carbohydrate between now and the day we die. Provided we eat enough fat and protein, which is how the panel on Macronutrients 2005 put it, provided you eat enough fat and protein, we will be just fine. No, I’m not saying that we should do that. I’m just, as you say, trying to put that nutritional fact in the context of Arctic governments telling us to have at least 55 per cent of our diet in the form of carbohydrate. That’s the one thing we don’t need. And they’re saying, Major, your diet on that one thing. And of course, I don’t think we’ve evolved to eat that level of carbohydrate. I think up to 60, 70 percent of our diet in the form of carbohydrate. When do we ever get to the point that we can break down body fat? We are constantly in a state of fat storeroom because, of course, carbs stimulate Insulin. Insulin is the fat storing hormone. Every time we eat carbs, glucose goes into the bloodstream. The body goes into an emergency E.R. crisis situation. Get the glucose out. Calls upon insulin. Now, pretty much the developed world is in a constant fat storin scenario. Now we got to reverse that. And one of the things we could do to reverse that is to say cut back massively on your carbohydrate. Just stop having your body in this crisis mode the whole time. Interestingly, athletes are quite susceptible to type 2 diabetes, almost as much as overweight people because, of course, athletes carb, low carb, low carb load. Yeah. Years on end. And then they end up like Professor Tim Oates or Stephanie or Steve Redgrave, our Olympic rower. They end up with diabetes because they just had too much carbohydrate. Too often the body says enough’s enough.

Fern:
So that brings up a good kind of Segway. But knowing that there is no central carbohydrate, that we don’t necessarily need them to survive, that kind of leads me into the how do we start having the conversation about a calorie is not just a calorie and or just the calories are not really what we should be focusing on, because I was I was thinking about watching the video years ago.

Fern:
Of Gary Townsend, he was doing the math on if you reduced somebody’s caloric intake, what that should equal into loss in pounds. And what he was illustrating was it just doesn’t work like mathematically. It does not work that way. So what you know, Crossfitters and gym owners, obviously, most of us are not doctors in this, particularly in this field. How do we start to educate people and like, what should our clients know about this whole myth that a calorie is a calorie and all we need to worry about is like our total caloric intake.

Zoe Harcombe:
I think Gary puts it in a good way, and I often joke, I mean, you’ve seen me, I’m sure I’m tiny, I’m very petite in your currency, we do pounds and stone. So what am I? I’m seven stone, which is seven 14’s, which is 98, and I’m probably about a hundred and six or seven pounds or something. So it’s a hundred and ten. Keep the math easy. The calorie theory says that I just have to cut back by a thousand calories a day and I eat a lot. So that is actually possible. OK. I could arguably do that. And I’d I’d weigh about 10 pounds in a year’s time. I mean, it is that stupid. And when I say. People laugh and I say, why you ask a calorie controlled diet every Monday morning because they think they’re going to cut back by 2000 calories a day, lose 2 pounds that week, they’re going to cut back by 500 pound a week 1bls.

Fern:
Yeah, and the other thing there is that.

Zoe Harcombe:
Blatantly absurd.

Fern:
Yeah, and it doesn’t work like that if. Because everybody’s been doing that at least in the US. I’m not really sure. I’m not as familiar with the UK where everybody knows everybody. Everybody’s been following those guidelines and it doesn’t seem to be working. Yeah.

Zoe Harcombe:
And two things that I would say to get across to people. I’ll just, um, get these in in the right order. So try. Right. Okay. So the first mistake that they made, they think that let’s say you cut back by this thousand calories a day. You have a deficit that should be a deficit of two pounds of fat alone in that week. They act as if the body is a cash machine for fat. So they act as if the body is just going to say. There you go. There’s two pounds of fat. Now, where we call that is so difficult to describe a power completely stupidly, insanely absurd. That belief is because the body will do anything it can not to lose weight. It’s it’s life in throughout evolution, fat has been what has sustained us through the lean periods. So it’s life threatening. So the body is not going to give up fat. So what is the body going to do? First thing, you try to go on a diet. You try to eat less. First thing that the body’s going to do is to try to get you to eat more. So the minute you go on a calorie. About is food. All you want to do is eat to do less, put less, then you’re too tired to go to the Jenya, too tired to do the gardening.

Zoe Harcombe:
You’re too tired to walk the dog. It will make sure that you do less. It will make you make bad choices that will make you choose stupid things like rice cakes over scrambled eggs and butter or whatever. But it does some other things. We’ve got nine circulatory systems and it just shuts down anything it can. So how many people know a female who’s gone on an extreme calorie deficit diet? How quick did the parents stop? The body says the entire reproductive system. I’m just shutting down. You’re not in a fit state to look after yourself. There is no way I’m going to let you have a baby right now. Circulate to systems, slows down. The person is frozen, the heating system is turned off. The body will take calcium out of the bones. If you’re not putting it through your mouth, that the body just adapts, it just adapts. The Calourise theory theories make no allowance whatsoever for what the body does mentally, psychologically, physically and hormonally in response to a calorie deficit diet. The insanity just knows no bounds.

Fern:
The the other thing that I found tough to wrap my brain around that argument that, hey, all we really need to do is reduce caloric intake and increase our output. Well, if we’re reducing record intake and then generally in most instances we’re going to talk about practical application of this idea, we’re taking somebody who is maybe not sedentary, but probably pretty close to sedentary and then increasing their physical output.

Fern:
How are we supposed to fuel that physical output with decreased caloric intake like that just doesn’t make sense. I’m like, you’re stealing while trying. It’s like trying to it’s like saying I’m going to drive my car farther, but I’m gonna put less gas in it.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah. And put the calorie theorists think is yours. You’ve got to know 50 pounds of fat on your body. The body will just give up that fat. There you go. That’s the fuel. Now, you will know as an extreme is extremely impressive athlete that to become fat adapt it, which is what that effectively is takes a serious amount of time and it also takes certain physiological conditions. So if if you just forget calories for a while and just say, okay, what is weight loss? What is actually the that what is weight loss? I can’t put it any simpler than that. So body fat is a structure called triglyceride, which is the backbone of dice roll with three fatty acids. And when the body goes to break that structure down, that is weight loss in action. That is what it actually is. Now, there are certain physiological circumstances in which that can happen and there are many physiological circumstances in which that cannot happen. So if for any time you have insulin present in the body, that cannot happen because breaking down that triglyceride structure Reklau relies on glucagon to break it down and glucagon and insulin are antagonists. They are never in play at the same time. So if you’ve ever got insulin present, you will not break down body fat.

Fern:
Ok I did not know that.

Zoe Harcombe:
If you got glucose present. If you’ve got stored glucose, which we know if glycogen present, then when you get in the situation that you’re running low on fuel, the body will say Hey, glucagon, go and get me some fuel. And the first thing that glucagon will look for because it’s the Easy you see source of fuel is the lazy source of fuel is glucose. So it will look for the stored glycogen and we can store about right about fifteen to two thousand fifteen hundred to 2000 calories worth of glycogen in the muscles and in the liver. So think about the average person who’s eating in 60 to 70 percent of their diet in the form of carbohydrate as they’ve been told to do on a daily basis. They have really good glycogen store or so any time there isn’t insulin, there isn’t carbohydrate and glucagon gets to go and look for some fuel. It’s got glycogen. You will never break down body fat. If you’ve got an alternative fuel source available, it just doesn’t happen.

Fern:
That’s interesting. I wasn’t aware of. I wouldn’t I didn’t know that there was that kind of hierarchy with regard to how it gets used. Obviously I’m not a doctor, but.

Zoe Harcombe:
I think they’re right that there are extreme though they say some of the extreme athletes will say that there are extreme exercise circumstances in which fat will be burned preferentially to glucose. But they are so rare. I mean, we’re talking a particular sweet spot on V02 Max. They are so rare that obese, sedentary person who is trying to lose weight does not need to worry about their circumstances. That person needs to think about the fact that if they are grazing on carbohydrates all day long, which is what you do if you follow in the calorie controlled diet and you’re trying to get the biggest bang for your buck, you just chew chewing gum and suck on boiled sweets all day long because you’ve got zero fat. Trust me, I did it as a teenager. You can never get the situation. Your body can even start to have the chance of breaking down body fat is impossible, it just can’t happen. So.

Fern:
I don’t know. I don’t know if you can do this. I was looking. I had no. First of all, I had no idea you’d written so many books and had been like like co-authored so many books. I was just looking through someone in the obesity epidemic. The diet fix. Why do we overeat? We stopped counting calories. And then you have kind of your own nutritional guidelines in there. What what would you if you could surmise your stance on nutrition? What would it be?

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah, it’s really easy, actually. Number one, eat real food. It comes from the farm or. not a factory, fish in Reddit’s sticks, whatever. It’s not that complex. That’s number one. Number two is choose that food for the nutrients it provides. And if you spend a little bit of time on one of the best Web sites in the world, which is called nutrition data dot com, you can put in any food that you like, put it in by 100 grams. It’s the easiest way to compare across foods. I just know which foods are healthy and which route.

Fern:
And this was that was a question of.

Zoe Harcombe:
Having things like liver, which I know is fabulous. Can you have to try to it?

Fern:
Could you give some weight data on liver because that when you put that that it’s like spreadsheet up at the summit, my mind exploded. I was like every human being should be eating liver all the time.

Zoe Harcombe:
How much is insane? What I’ve got I’ve got a little postcard that I give away at talk. So I just happen to have one on my desk as I was doing a presentation last night and my mom and I. Oh, there you go. So. Okay. So I put in liver because I know it is the single most nutritious food on the planet. And I know that from spending a lot of time on nutrition data on I’ve never been able to find anything more nutritious and nobody else has either. Some people write in and say, oh, what about oysters? You investigate them. No, they still don’t when sirloin steak, because red meat is a really good all rounder. It’s particularly good for zinc. You can put in eggs, you can put in dairy, you can put in oily fish. That would be a really good one to put em. You can put in a fruit because they’re telling a story five a day, which has no evidence base whatsoever. Put in one of these so-called healthy, in inverted commas, whole grains. You can put in legumes, their so-called lentils, beans or whatever, broccoli, a green vegetable dip, different charts in different presentations. But you can see that liver absolutely cleans up. It cleans up on protein quality retinol, which is the form of vitamin A that the body needs. It cleans up on pretty much all of the B vitamins. That may be one. Then you’ve got fantastic inputs of iron. It’s very good for zinc. It’s just red meat happens to be better. It’s just outstanding. And when you look at what we’re told to eat, the fruit, the healthy whole grains, legumes, the vegetables, the vegetable oils, and then you compare those for the things that we need, which is complete protein, essential fats, vitamins and minerals. You compare those with the things that demonize meat, fish, eggs and dairy and meat for and dairy, have everything we need in fantastic quantities in the right form. The stuff they’re telling a story has practically none of what we need, let alone in the right form. And it’s just like if there’s one chart that shows you our guidelines are wrong, it’s that chart. So my second principle is choose your food for the nutrients, your real food, for the nutrients it provides, and then you will be drawn to meat, fresh eggs and dairy, green things, some nuts and some seeds. And and that’s about it. And the third principle that I tell people see a maximum of three times a day. And to make it memorable, I sound as you are a cow or want to be the size of a cow, stop grazing because we just eat the whole day long and we wonder why we’re so fat. Because that’s that’s what cows do. We just happen to graze on things that are even less suitable for us.

Fern:
I’ve found myself just due to my work schedule, kind of more gravitating towards something that resembles and not even intentionally just more intermittent fasting. So I’ll eat in the morning typically like eggs and bacon, a little bit of fruit, but very good like protein and fat heavy. And then I’ll go like the whole day and then look at something at dinner that looks very similar, but maybe a little bit heavier on carbs. But. I mean, I find that the only eating twice a day in most instances, like sustained that almost the same body weight for the past 20 years. I’m almost 40, probably almost the exact same muscle mass. And yeah, I don’t eat all day long. I eat twice in most instances and it works out just fine.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah. And I’m the same. I’ve been pretty much the same weight for exactly that kind of period of time. I have to watch it. I actually have a tendency to go lower weight than I would actually like to do. So I do eat three times a day. I also have I just have a need for fuel that regularly, but I’m quite happy to have my evening meal quite early and then I might easily be a 12 or 13 hour gap and to late the next morning. I’m not doing that deliberately. It just suits my lifestyle. It helps me sleep better if I eat earlier. It means I can do things in the evening. And I’m not think, you know, when I’m going to have dinner, it’s out of the way. It just it just works for me. What wouldn’t work for me would be these people that are not eating all day or they have an evening meal and then they don’t eat until breakfast the day after, the day after, whatever it’s like. I’m I’m not sure on this. Yeah. I think there’s some good evidence for two meals rather than three. And I think there’s some good evidence starting to come through for the overnight fast extending the overnight fast if only to give insulin arrest and to actually keep your body the chance to burn body fat. But I am a bit worried about these people that just think I’m just not going to eat for a couple of days, then that’s going to be good. I think your body’s then going to start shutting down. I mean, I I joked with a journalist that when when all of this sort of intermittent fasting, 5:2 diets, all that stuff came out, this journalist said, well, what do you think?

Zoe Harcombe:
And I said, well, you know, not eating for a whole day and then eating more if you want the next day. You know, I kind of did that as a teenager. It’s just it was called bulimia back then. So I’m just not what I would advise.

Fern:
I don’t mean to laugh it out is not funny, but it is kind of funny.

Zoe Harcombe:
I don’t mind. I can laugh at it. But I remember the question came up at low cab Denver last year and I intervened and said, guys, we gotta talk eating disorders here because a heck of a lot of people in this field have come from a background of an eating disorder or still not having a great relationship with food in the way that you and I can enjoy at the moment and have enjoyed for a long time, and trying to encourage people to eat nothing and then eat moderately or eat what you want or whatever. I’m really not convinced it’s healthy. Well, we know that so many people don’t have a basic healthy relationship with food. Just get a good relationship with food festival. Stop thinking of crap as treats. It’s crap. Stop thinking, oh, I deserve a reward. I’m gonna have a bag of nachos. I mean, just stop it. We’ve got to get them mindset right. And then if you find that you can skip a meal and not want to overeat at the next meal, and if you skip a meal and you feel good, you don’t feel bad, you don’t feel deprived, fine. But that’s the advanced class we’ve got to get some basics first.

Fern:
I think I think Rob Wolff brought it up once and he was talking about peoples just there. The term cheat meal is like this weird oxymoron because the term sheet would it would suggest that I’m getting ahead. But when I use it term of nutrition, it’s just a massive setback. And it’s not just the way it’s used in general. It is very odd if you really think about it and try to unpack that.

Zoe Harcombe:
I like that.

Fern:
The question I have and you I know you have a lot of theories on this, which I thought was really funny when you presented. But when you look at the nutrient density of these foods and clearly things like, you know, like lean proteins and and liver start coming out on top, it really starts to beg the question, why would anybody move towards a vegan diet? Like if if those foods are so devoid of nutrients and these are so packed with nutrients. How could somebody possibly fall in the camp of not eating meat? Can you talk a little about your thoughts on that?

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah, because I was vegetarian for 20 years,.

Fern:
Because I think it’s important context for you in this conversation.

Zoe Harcombe:
You know, it’s some it’s it’s very interesting. I think some people, particularly young people, particularly people with a weight problem, particularly perhaps females, we do know that the profile while a vegetarian / vegans is very heavily swayed towards being female, have been younger. And I think a little bit of a start with is I think there was a bit of this mentality going on with me. Oh, great. I can cut out whole food groups so I’m bound to lose weight because if I go to somebody’s house for dinner or a I’m some function and I say I don’t eat meat and fish, then there’s like a whole lot of stuff I just don’t have to eat. The fact that then you end up with the potatoes and the dessert and the bedroll or whatever kind of escapes you. You’ve actually skipped the best bit. So I think there’s a little bit of that going on. But then there are basically three reasons that. Vegetarian, the one that’s wrong is that they think it’s healthier and we can get back to that.

Zoe Harcombe:
The second one is because they don’t like the idea of eating animals. And the third one is and this has become increasingly the one thrown at other people is that they think it’s better for the planet. So really, really quickly is absolutely not healthier. I’ve just seen an open post on my site about V Jan, which is massive in the UK. I don’t know how big it is in the U in the US, but it’s about going vegan for January and I just go through all the nutrients that you are not going to get from a vegan diet. Retinol vitamin A B12 deth 3 he my own Omega 3 and you’re probably not going to get enough calcium, iron and some other nutrients and on your web site.

Zoe Harcombe:
Zoe Harcombe dot com. It’s it’s the post that was done the first post January 2020. It’s on V Jan, is it healthy? And it goes through all the deficiencies and it goes through Dr Michael Grego, who’s one of the leading figures in Weld’s. It goes through his search, sort of perfect diet in inverted commas. And it goes through all the deficiencies in that. It goes through all the co-founders of began to actually admits it. And you’ll probably be okay if you do. If he can read from for any longer than that, there are gaps in the diet like, jeez, you’re the founder of the thing and you’re admitting that you really don’t want to be doing this for much longer than a month. So anyone who thinks it’s it’s healthier is deluding themselves. Don’t do it because it’s healthy, because it’s not the second one. And I really do understand this one is that people don’t. There are a number of people who don’t like eating animals. They don’t like the idea that these beautiful creatures are killed for us to eat, essentially that they are part of the food supply. Now, one of the challenges back is that there’s a bit of another delusion going on in that vegetarians and vegan.

Zoe Harcombe:
Appreciate that there is absolutely nothing that they can eat for which nothing is diet. They’re just not honoring the animal by eating the whole animal, including the awful nose to tail. But there is nothing that they can eat for which nothing has died. So, yes, some soy is. Animals are being displaced in the Amazon and beautiful creatures are being wiped out and killed and burned to death. Arang Tangs and some of the most beautiful animals on earth for soy to be fed to cattle, which is also insane because cattle should be out grazing in the fields.

Fern:
Yeah,.

Zoe Harcombe:
But make no mistake, a lot of that is also happening to grow soybeans for the increasing number of people who are becoming vegetarian and vegan and fish are dying because rivers are being diverted to irrigate crops so that we can grow rapeseed and soybeans and the rest of it. And if you’ve ever seen a combine harvester, if you’re trying to tell me that wheat and grains and rice and barley and whatever can be harvested without rabbits, voles, birds, worms, whatever, our snake’s been hoovered up by that. Combine your dream in color. Because it is impossible. There’s a great paper called Plant Deaths sorry, animal deaths in plant agriculture.

Zoe Harcombe:
Your food is killing things as well. It’s just you’re not actually eating what gets killed. Sorry. Harsh fact. I’m a thinker. Not a feeler? I deal in facts. Not not feelings.

Fern:
And in the final.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah. Hashtag. Get over it. Learn. Learn the evidence. And the third one on the planet to me again, just seems so simple because there is only one thing in the food supply that actually protects and rejuvenates topsoil. And if we dont have topsoil in the world, then we can’t grow any food naturally. Not meat or eggs or chickens or plants or anything else. Soil is what we currently use to grow food. And of course, ruminants rejuvenate and protect topsoil. And for ruminants and golf, goats, cattle, dairy from that cattle, sheep and the dairy from that sheep. So that’s what’s protecting topsoil. So you take a vegan world and you’ve got very, very few harvests left where you’ve got topsoil and on the planet. And then at the point I just had a tweet on that, the point you don’t have topsoil, then you’re reduced to growing food. It’s called hydroponics. You grow food upside down in greenhouses, no soil required picture a beautiful landscape where if you drive around and you see beautiful fields and you admire the beauty of the countryside, then imagine that there’s no grass because the topsoil is all gone.

Zoe Harcombe:
There’s no soil or the soil is run off down the roads, into the drains. I don’t know what that does to the birds and the bees and the animals and the other populations. There’s no cows. There’s no sheep. We don’t need those. No chickens. This may pigs. There’s no domestic cats because you can’t have. They need to eat their carnivores. They need to eat that food.

Fern:
And basically the landscape is replaced by greenhouses and the greenhouses are growing the food upside down. And the agri chemical companies are some of the biggest backers of things like the Eat Landsat report, which was pretty much a pure vegan plant based diet. So they sort of James Bond conspiracy theory, Armageddon situation. They’re quite happy with their. They’re ahead of us read already. They can already cope with trying to provide food. I don’t know. The roads, but they were ready to make any sense.

Fern:
Ok, so knowing all that, like so when you’re when you’ve insist, when you’re at your affiliate and you’re giving this nutrition one on one talk, how do we start to have that conversation? How do we start to to like as you were and I were kind of discussing before we record like how do we start to change the world and get people into a better headspace, but also a more sustainable, more effective nutrition protocol.

Zoe Harcombe:
That’s a really interesting one, actually. I think that’s when I think my three rules hold for everyone. OK. Eat real food, choose the food for the nutrients and any a maximum three times a day. I think that really does hold for everyone. Maybe if somebody is trying to gain weight, they want to be grazing and keep an insulin present all the time. But that’s a rare scenario. As we know. So what we would then be saying to people is what is your food go? What is your health goal? Are you trying to fuel better future activity? In which case become fat adapted. And if anyone wants to know more, more on that, I would highly recommend the books by Steve Finney, Jeff Aulich, The Art and Science of low carb living and the art and science of low carb performance.

Zoe Harcombe:
They are the bibles on becoming fat adapted, so they become fat update and then use carbohydrate to. In Ha! What’s that fat adaptation performance and use it to maintain. Have your perfect weight, whether that means more weight or less weight, you’ll power to weight ratio, you can more easily be controlled than by the carbohydrates. But for a lot of people, even in a Crossfit, box, weight is going to be lose. Weight is going to be one of the goals losing a bit of weight or losing a lot of weight. It might people actually get somebody into a Crossfit, box that they’ve heard. Greg wants the most unlikely person who could possibly think of themselves in a gym to turn up a Crossfit, box, because that’s one of the big things that CrossFit is about. It’s not just about Matt Fraser and Tia Clair to me. It’s about getting up on the floor when you fall, when you’re 75 years old or better still, not falling because you’ve actually kept great muscle tone because you discovered Crossfit, safeties in it, that that’s that’s what it about. And for those people who say, I want to lose some weight, then you need to have the calorie conversation if you ever try going on. Eat less. Do more diet. Yeah. What happened? I’ll tell you what they’ll tell you. Oh, I lost a bit of weight and then I regained it and then I I regained a bit more. So then you can have a conversation that says, okay. So you think they did that more than once? They did 100 times.

Zoe Harcombe:
Yeah. We should try something different then. I would be saying that. Do you know what weight loss actually is? And explain in the state that the body needs to break down body fat because that was a penny drop moment last May, I tell you. I mean, you can watch the audience as you’re talking and you just suddenly see the faces. Oh, my God. And now I realize it’s not calories. Yeah. What state you need to be in and then talk to them about. Okay. So how can we help you to get to that state if you’re snacking six times a day at the moment? Let’s get it to five. Let’s get it to four. Let’s get it to three. Are you eating enough at those meal so you can get through to the next meal without needing a snack in between? Maybe bring dinner a little bit earlier, maybe take breakfast a little bit later. Give your body that chance to burn fat overnight. Hey, you sleep in and you’re losing weight at the same time. How good is that? And just continually make positive suggestions that are achievable and that the person is prepared to do. Because at the end of the day, we will do a hell of a lot to lose weight. Yeah, we will starve ourselves. We’ll go on a liquid diet for six months. But what we’re trying with the best will in the world at the moment is not working. And that’s why we gotta try something different.

Fern:
Yeah. What I find almost universally is like the simpler things are, the more effective it is. So that’s what I love about you. Like what you gave was very, very simple. Eat real foods, choose them based on nutrient content and don’t eat three more than three times a day. I mean, I don’t know anybody that wouldn’t be able to just wrap their brain around that and then say, yeah, I could probably do the same thing. And Greg statement and world class fitness in 100 words, which is, you know, you know, eat meat, vegetables. That’s a seed, some fruit, little starch, no sugar. You know, keep and take the levels of support exercising their body fat. I’m like, that’s pretty simple. You know, get fat in it. And it puts everybody in a state where like these are the principles. Yeah. Is not live your life however you want inside these principles and it will be effective. So I think that’s really, really cool. We covered a lot, haven’t we? That is a lot. Those. This is great. I was gonna ask you about your opinion on game changers, but I don’t know if we have that much time on the on the podcast.

Zoe Harcombe:
I haven’t even watched it because I don’t like I don’t like watching films like that. I haven’t watched. Any Forks Over Now, Eve’s Cow Spare Recy or whatever. I know what they’re going to say. They’re going to say what we talked about earlier. They’re either going to try and claim it’s healthier or they’re going to claim it’s better for the animals. And they do have some argument there or they’re going to claim it’s better for the planet and they don’t have some argument there.

Fern:
Well, the argument by animals is not I don’t even consider that valid because it’s talking about like it. Listen, if we’re going to mass produce animals and we’re going to raise them inhumanely, then I think everybody agrees on that. But that’s assuming that there’s that argument is only based on the on the assumption that there is no better alternative, like natural farming, like what they’re doing. Polly Face Farms, you know, , yet so awesome.

Fern:
Where can people find you and what you have going on? Where is the best place for people to kind of like stay in touch with with publications, things that you’re doing and things that you’re getting into?

Zoe Harcombe:
Yep. So the best place to find me is so be Hakam dot com. I’m hardly ever on Facebook. I do have about, I don’t know, three thousand friends or something. I don’t know any of them. I’m never in there. I’m on Twitter. So you’ll find me on Twitter? Not all the time, because it’s one of those things that social media just takes time. We just check every now and again and see if people are chatting about some new paper that maybe you missed. And then it’s really helpful.

Fern:
Yeah. What are your twitter handle?

Zoe Harcombe:
Just @zoeharcombe. So that’s where you find me basically and my sort of what I do at the moment. I see what I’m known for and I’m known for my p_h_d_, which looked at the evidence base of the dietary fat guidelines and found that there was none. I’m known for attacking the calorie theory and saying the three and a half thousand thing has got no evidence base.

Zoe Harcombe:
And then I guess I’m known for I’ve been doing a Monday note every year for the last 10 years. So if there’s anything in the news this week, let’s say another Eat Lancet report came out this week. That would be my Monday note next week. Or there’s a paper comes out that says red meat causes cancer or you should all have your cholesterol level, sort of nothing.

Zoe Harcombe:
And I basically find the academic paper put it into plain English doing an exact summary. Tell me what you need to worry about, what you don’t need to worry about. And that’s that’s actually my business model as well. So I do have quite the post like mentioned Drupal on OpenView, but that’s my sort of business model. If if people want that, it’s a pound a week or a dollar a week. I don’t even know what it is. My husband runs all of that.

Fern:
Yeah, it’s it’s very reasonable. I went in I was looking at the other day and I was like, I need to sign up for this. So if anybody is interested to get into the into the weeds on that stuff, like, again, Zoe Hart, Kim Dotcom, you’d sign up for that newsletter or drop a bunch of information? Yeah, there’s a ton of information. And you go into any of the DDC anytime soon.

Zoe Harcombe:
I’m going to one in two weeks, actually. We’ve got one on February the 2nd, Sunday, February 2nd. And I think interestingly, the theme there is actually going to be the whole game changes scenario. So I think there’s a lot of different people go, Nina type is going. Gary Taleb’s. Mike Leeds. Robert Lustig. gassie Malhotra. trombino trying to get Chris back as he’s done great work on game changes that we’re all trying to do short presentations instead of the longer presentations that tend to happen at, say, 20 minutes each and then and just generally talk about the whole plant based movement. And why, it’s not good. And why, the summary that you beautifully said. The Crossfit, summary meat veg nut sees all of that. why, that is just so much better. So that’s what we’re off to do in a couple of weeks time.

Fern:
And I’d love to be a fly on that wall.

Zoe Harcombe:
Are you not a doctor, can you not go along? You know,.

Fern:
I can. I mean, I can pretend to be a doctor or something. But listen, I know you’re very, very busy.

Fern:
So thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate. I think people are gonna get a lot of this. I think there was some very useful information here, particularly for the box owners, because I do know having hav having owned an affiliate for 10 years, that this can be a very, very tough bridge to cross when you’re trying to help people and change their lives. But I think there’s a lot of really good nuggets here. So thank you so much.

Zoe Harcombe:
Oh, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed it. Thanks, Jason.

Zoe Harcombe:
Absolutely. Thank you.

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